Talk:Renée Vivien

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Symbolist?

I think that the Symbolists would have been surprised to learn that Vivien was a Symbolist. She is not normally included as part of the movement.

Poems by Vivien were included in Bernard Delvaille's anthology La Poésie Symboliste. (ISBN 2221501616) There may have been a strong element of "wannabee" in Vivien's verse, which is why I wrote that she "took to heart the mannerisms" of the school, and "claimed allegiance" to it. -- Smerdis of Tlön 04:14, 29 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I am not sure how reliable Delvaille's anthology is as a source of mainstream ideas about Symbolism. I saw the table of contents of the book which included some unusual choices of authors. I am getting a copy of the book and will see what he has to say before making a judgment. Vivien is usually associated with the Sapho 1900 group.

Birth and parents

In the meantime, it is worth noting that Vivien was born in London. Her mother was American and her father British.

American poet?

Born in England, to an American mother and a British father; grew up in both Long Island, London and France; spent significant amounts of time in all three countries; she wrote in French. Does that make her "an American poet who wrote in the French language"? Did she identify herself as a particular nationality? In the absence of choice by her to identify as one nationality or another, I would be inclined to call her an British/American/French poet (in whatever order) -- or even just "a poet who wrote in the French language". The rest of the article discusses her (complicated) national status enough; adding the adjective "American" is not only questionable but also redundant.

Citations

As is mentioned in the banner above the article, none of the sources listed at the bottom are paired with information in the article itself. Without in text citations, this could be considered plagiarism. In addition, some of the links in the citations don't work (namely, Renée Vivien ou le drame de l'absolu (in French): http://perso.wanadoo.fr/laureline/renee_vivienl.htm ). The sources also seem mostly questionable - many of the sources are just links to her poems and very few are actually autobiographical, let alone reliable. There are a lot of potentially opinionated or biased statements/wording choices throughout the article that need to have direct references to be valid (or should just be removed). MadelineMMay (talk) 16:17, 2 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Quality

I think the article needs to be heavily rewritten. It's incoherent and unrealible. The sources are of a very low-quality, and are more often than not, cyclical in nature. There's a profusion of bizzare, unsubstantiated claims that are littered throughout. Anactoriaa (talk) 11:00, 8 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Anactoriaa: I think that you are correct about the low quality of the sources. I am about to add a number of sources in the next section. Please peruse those to which you have access & feel free to incorporate them into the article for its improvement. Peaceray (talk) 05:02, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Citations for the article

As Anactoriaa has noted, there is a dearth of quality citations for this article. I have gathered a number of citations. Some will be available to all, some will be available at certain libraries, & some will limited access. I invite you to all to help in adding these citations to the article as appropriate.

Some citations will be available via the Wikipedia Library. If you are not already a member of the Wikipedia Library & you meet the requirements outlined at About the Wikipedia Library: Who can receive access?, then I urge you to join. Peaceray (talk) 05:03, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

A list of citations for Renée Vivien

Albert, Nicole; Erber, Nancy; Peniston, William (2016). Lesbian Decadence : Representations in Art and Literature of Fin-de-Siècle France. La Vergne: Harrington Park Press, LLC. ISBN 978-1-939594-21-1. OCLC 1023552079.
Albert, Nicole (1993-11-17). "Sappho Mythified, Sappho Mystified or The Metamorphoses of Sappho in Fin de Siècle France". Journal of Homosexuality. 25 (1–2). Informa UK Limited: 87–104. doi:10.1300/j082v25n01_07. ISSN 0091-8369.
Aldrich, Robert; Wotherspoon, Garry (2002). "Vivien, Renée (1877–1909)". Who's who in gay and lesbian history : from antiquity to World War II. London: Routledge. pp. 466–467. ISBN 978-1-84972-257-5. OCLC 213298249 – via Internet Archive.
Benstock, Shari (1986). "Contrasting Poetics: Vivien and Barney". Women of the Left Bank : Paris, 1900-1940. Austin: University of Texas Press. pp. 83, 276, 279, 285–289, 302–03. ISBN 978-0-292-79193-0. OCLC 698116886 – via Internet Archive.
Blankley, Elyse Marie (1984). Daughters' exile: Renee Vivien, Gertrude Stein, and Djuna Barnes in Paris (PhD). Davis, CA, US: University of California. OCLC 986514993.
Carr, Jennifer (2022-05-17). "Melanie C. Hawthorne. Women, Citizenship, and Sexuality: The Transnational Lives of Renée Vivien, Romaine Brooks, and Natalie Barney. Liverpool UP, 2021". Studies in 20th & 21st Century Literature. 46 (1). New Prairie Press. doi:10.4148/2334-4415.2223. ISSN 2334-4415.
Castle, Terry (2003). The literature of lesbianism : a historical anthology from Ariosto to Stonewall. New York: Columbia University Press. ISBN 0-231-12510-0. OCLC 1150214259 – via Internet Archive. Note: There is a brief chapter (pages 608–613) but Vivien is also mentioned throughout the book. See https://books.google.com/books?id=8dBWMz-FpZcC&pg=PA609&dq=Ren%C3%A9e+Vivien
Corinne, Tee A. (2002). "Photography: Lesbian, Pre-Stonewall" (PDF). glbtqarchive.com. GLBTQ, Inc.
Corinne, Tee A. (2002). "Subjects of the Visual Arts: Nude Femailes" (PDF). glbtqarchive.com. GLBTQ, Inc.
Dilts, Rebekkah (2019-11-11). "(Un)veiling Sappho: Renée Vivien and Natalie Clifford Barney's Radical Translation Projects". Refract: An Open Access Visual Studies Journal. 2 (1). California Digital Library (CDL). doi:10.5070/r72145856. ISSN 2640-9429.
Engelking, Tama Lea (1993). "Genre and the Mark of Gender: Renee Vivien's "Sonnet feminin"". Modern Language Studies. 23 (4). JSTOR: 79–92. doi:10.2307/3195207. ISSN 0047-7729.
Engelking, Tama Lea (2002). "Renee Vivien and The Ladies of the Lake". Nineteenth Century French Studies. 30 (3). Project Muse: 363–380. doi:10.1353/ncf.2002.0014. ISSN 1536-0172. OCLC 5612759813.
Engelking, Tama Lea (2007). "Decadence and the Woman Writer: Renée Vivien's Une femme m'apparut". In Holmes, Diana; Tarr, Carrie (eds.). A "belle epoque"? : women in French society and culture, 1890-1914. New York. pp. 225–237. hdl:2027/heb08670.0001.001. ISBN 978-0-85745-701-1. JSTOR j.ctt9qd89w.21. OCLC 961901020.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: location missing publisher (link)
Fabre-Serris, Jacqueline (2016-10-27). "Anne Dacier (1681), Renée Vivien (1903): Or What Does it Mean for a Woman to Translate Sappho?". Women Classical Scholars. Oxford University Press. doi:10.1093/acprof:oso/9780198725206.003.0005. ISBN 9780191792571. OCLC 964291395.
Faxneld, Per (2017). "Lucifer and the Lesbians: Sapphic Satanism". Satanic Feminism: Lucifer as the Liberator of Woman in Nineteenth-Century Culture. Oxford University Press. pp. 9, 20, 234, 236–237, 261, 265, 274, 285, 327, 347, 354–385, 387, 407, 419, 423–425, 437, 439–440, 461, 476, 482–483, 498–507, 509–510, 513–514. ISBN 978-0-19-066447-3. OCLC 1025340204. (via the Wikipedia Library)
Germain, André (1917). Renée Vivien (in French). G. Crès & cie. OCLC 10057722.
Glick, Elisa (2009). "The seductions of Sapphic decadence". Materializing queer desire : Oscar Wilde to Andy Warhol. Albany: State University of New York Press. ISBN 1-4384-2738-7. OCLC 809411167.
Hawthorne, Melanie (2019). "Behind the Bamboo Screen: Renée Vivien and the Rituals of Self-Destruction". The French Review. 92 (4). Project Muse: 54–66. doi:10.1353/tfr.2019.0274. ISSN 2329-7131. OCLC 8872157536.
Hawthorne, Melanie C. (2021-01-23). Women, Citizenship, and Sexuality: The Transnational Lives of Renée Vivien, Romaine Brooks, and Natalie Barney. Liverpool University Press. doi:10.2307/j.ctv1hqdjv0. ISBN 978-1-78962-273-7. OCLC 1237865853.
Jay, Karla (1988). The amazon and the page : Natalie Clifford Barney and Renée Vivien. Bloomington. ISBN 0-253-30408-3. OCLC 568764307 – via Internet Archive.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: location missing publisher (link)
Leontis, Artemis (2019-03-05). Eva Palmer Sikelianos. Princeton University Press. doi:10.2307/j.ctv5j01vj. ISBN 978-0-691-18790-7. OCLC 1080938485.
Marks, Elaine (1996). ""Sapho 1900": Imaginary Renée Vivien, Charles Maurras, an the Rear of the Belle Epogue". Marrano as metaphor : the Jewish presence in French writing. New York: Columbia University Press. pp. 43–58. ISBN 0-231-10308-5. OCLC 1035758179.
Rosello, Mireille (1996). "Renée Vivien's La Dame a la louve and Une Femme m'apparut". Infiltrating culture : power and identity in contemporary women's writing. Manchester, UK: Manchester University Press. pp. 146–180. ISBN 0-7190-4875-3. OCLC 1302083624 – via Internet Archive.
Goujon, Jean-Paul, ed. (1984). Album Secret: Renée Vivien, Natalie Barney, Eva Palmer (in French). Editions "A L'Ecart". OCLC 13007229.
Souhami, Diana (2005). "Discursion 3: Renée Vivien, More Renée Vivien; Discursion 43: Renée Vivien's Death". Wild girls : Paris, Sappho, and art -- the lives and loves of Natalie Barney and Romaine Brooks. St. Martin's Press. pp. 36–54. OCLC 1285844271 – via Internet Archive.
Souhami, Diana (2005). Wild girls : Paris, Sappho, and art -- the lives and loves of Natalie Barney and Romaine Brooks. New York: St. Martin's Press. ISBN 0-312-34324-8. OCLC 1285844271 – via Internet Archive.
Summers, Claude J. (1995). "Vivien, Renée (1877–1909)". Gay and Lesbian Literary Heritage: a reader's companion to the writers and their works, from antiquity to the present. New York: H. Holt. pp. 179–181. ISBN 0-8050-2716-5. OCLC 865245596 – via Internet Archive.
Vicinus, Martha (2004). "The Lesbian Androgyne: Renée Vivien". Intimate friends : women who loved women, 1778-1928. Chicago: University of Chicago Press. pp. n21, 162–163, 171–173, 178, 183, 186, 189, 190–198, 234, 235, 243. ISBN 0-226-85563-5. OCLC 1310747923 – via Internet Archive.
Vivien, Renée (1982). "Introduction". A woman appeared to me. Translated by Foster, Jeannette H. introduction by Gayle Rubin. Tallahassee, Florida. pp. iii–xx. ISBN 0-930044-06-1. OCLC 22067452 – via Internet Archive.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: location missing publisher (link)
Wright, Julian (2003-07-10). The Regionalist Movement in France 1890-1914. Oxford University Press. pp. 111–113. doi:10.1093/acprof:oso/9780199264889.001.0001. ISBN 978-0-19-926488-9.

Natalie Barney's view of Vivien's portrayal in The Pure and the Impure

it's not just reportedly that she didn't like it, - in her piece The Colette I Have Known, she says Colette judges Renee in her profile without 'understanding or consideration.' 94.197.168.225 (talk) 19:38, 3 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

she states that the profile shows Colette's dislike of Vivien. Judith Thurman, one of Colette's best biographers, says she didn't really like her, but did feel sympathetic to her because of her mental illness, the cause of much of her behaviour. 94.197.168.225 (talk) 19:39, 3 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Colette did dedicate a piece to Vivien, Printemps de la Riviera, about a lesbian masked ball they attended with the courtesans Liane de Pougy, Carolina Otero and Renee's onetime lover Emilienne d'Alencon. 94.197.168.225 (talk) 19:41, 3 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Barney also felt that Colette's negative view of Vivien's poetry was because she disliked most poetry. Judith Thurman states that Vivien's poems were out-of-fashion even when written (not that this necessarily means they were without merit) 94.197.168.225 (talk) 19:42, 3 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Emilienne d'Alencon

Vivien also dated her 94.197.168.225 (talk) 19:39, 3 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Olive Custance

Vivien also had an affair with her - related in A Woman appeared to me. Custance was also Barney's lover 94.197.168.225 (talk) 19:46, 3 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Sacha Ricoy

Helene van Zuylen eventually dumped Renee for Sacha Ricoy, wife of the Brazilian ambassador Luis Ricoy, and daughter of the Russian-Jewish sculptor Mark Anotokovsky. 94.197.168.225 (talk) 19:47, 3 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

see Lot's Wife : Lesbian Paris 94.197.168.225 (talk) 19:48, 3 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Converting citations in the Further reading section to the Cite Book template

As per Wikipedia:Citing sources#Generally considered helpful, I am going to convert the citations in the Further reading section to {{Cite Book}} format to be consistent with the citation style in the rest of the article. Peaceray (talk) 15:05, 7 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]