Talk:Gabriel Fauré

Award of Croix de Guerre

Although cited to a biography, I question as it stands the statement that Faure was awarded the Croix de Guerre for his service in the Franco-Prussian War of 1870-71, when the decoration was not instituted until 1915 during World War I. Was such a medal awarded in the former war, or was it given retrospectively. If a case of the latter it should be made clear. (I am aware that Lord Kitchener was belatedly awarded the campaign medal for his service attached to the French Army in that war in 1914, so I do not rule out a similar thing happening to Faure.)Cloptonson (talk) 20:04, 11 January 2020 (UTC)

Fauré and Elgar

I have redrawn the sentence about the premiere of Elgar's First Symphony to reflect the source better. Tim riley talk 15:08, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

Middle Years - Sexist tone in references to Marie Fremiet

I find the first paragraph under “Middle Years” to be rather sexist in tone. Marie is subtly blamed for Gabriel’s infidelity, as in, “she did not share his passionate nature, which found fulfillment elsewhere”. What woman of that era would sleep with a profligate, when the danger of getting a venereal disease was great, and the treatment for such diseases was arduous and could be deadly, involving the use of poisons like mercury or arsenic. (https://www.pharmaceutical-journal.com/opinion/blogs/syphilis-and-the-use-of-mercury/20201679.blog?firstPass=false)

“Marie insisted on combining her family name with Fauré's…” Why put it this way? Insisted? Hyphenating the last name was a common practice of the day, especially if both families were prominent or famous in some way, as was the case here, since Marie’s father was the noted sculptor, Emanuel Fremiet. Double surnames also occurred when there was no male heir, as this was a way to carry on the family name. It is not known if Marie had any siblings, but if she did not, it would be another reason for the Fauré’s to agree to hyphenate their children’s names. See the quote below:

"In Britain, hyphenated double surnames were historically passed down to heirs. They commemorated the combining of family fortunes and affiliations by marriage. When there were no male heirs to the estate in the bride's line, the name could be used by the husband, usually done if he was from a family less well-off than the bride's family. This practice began in the 15th century and was limited to nobility or those of great wealth. " https://www.brides.com/hyphenated-last-name-5069450

Perhaps a more flattering and less subservient photo of Marie could be found, showing her by herself, a courtesy granted to the paramours of Fauré later in the article. Perhaps this portrait, or this one, a photograph of her with her two sons, or this, a bust made by her father, or this painting.

Bonnieful (talk) 21:59, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

References

Has any contributor or other editor got any views on the above? It's a quite interesting point of view, but having read it carefully and reread the relevant section of the article I don't think any changes are called for, though others may think differently. Tim riley talk 22:35, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

I am no expert on Fauré, being merely a singer who enjoys singing his art songs, but I would urge the editors of this otherwise excellent article to take Bonnieful's comments very seriously. it is a fact that Wikipedia is overwhelmingly edited by males, and this is an opportunity to take a feminine point of view into account that may help avoid a sexist point of view inadvertently baked into the article. If anything can be done, consistent with the sources, to remove any sexist slant in the language that she refers to in the article, I hope it will be executed. Thanks to Bonnieful for these thoughts, sources, and links to the images. I take the point about the image and have substituted the other one from Commons, since there are plenty of images of Faure himself in the article. -- Ssilvers (talk) 23:27, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

I agree with Ssilvers' sentiments, but the question is whether those phrases reflect what Jessica Duchen wrote. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 02:34, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

Ssilvers suggested I post the paragraph as I would change it. The links, sources, and citations are in my original comment above.

In 1883 Fauré married Marie Fremiet, the daughter of a leading sculptor, Emmanuel Fremiet.[48][n 5] The marriage was affectionate, but Marie became resentful of Fauré's love affairs, his frequent absences, and his dislike of domestic life – "horreur du domicile" –while she remained at home.[48] Though Fauré valued Marie as a friend and confidante, writing to her often – sometimes daily – when away from home, his passionate nature found fulfilment elsewhere.[49] Fauré and his wife had two sons. The first, born in 1883, Emmanuel Fauré-Fremiet, (since Marie came from a prominent family her family name was combined with Fauré's) became a biologist of international reputation.[50] The second son, Philippe, born in 1889, became a writer; his works included histories, plays, and biographies of his father and grandfather.[51]

Does any of this have to reflect what Jessica Duchen wrote? (I'm new here, so please be kind.) I'm not trying to be flip, but isn't the idea to try to reflect who Gabriel and Marie were like based on the sources presented? Bonnieful (talk) 03:00, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

We have to reflect faithfully what our sources say. That is how Wikipedia works. I have Duchen's book on my shelves and will check the wording when I am next at my flat. I will see what Nectoux says, also. I have restored the photo of the Faures, as the one of Marie is unsuitable, being 20 years out of date for the period covered in the text. You should bear in mind, Bonnieful, that this is what we call a Featured Article, meaning that it has been minutely reviewed and approved by a group of editors, and should not be substantially changed without good reason. Tim riley talk 07:08, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

The issues in WP should always be accuracy and NPOV; arguments of whether something is sexist or not (if it meets those two criteria) will always be a matter of opinion. I have removed the comment about the double surname as it is not supported by the citation given.--Smerus (talk) 11:51, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

I've added some additional information from Nectoux, which explains the relationship more clearly. Tim riley talk 20:46, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

Paring down the intro?

I'm wondering why this particular article's introductory paragraphs are so big, with so much detail that's in the article's subsequent sections. It's understandable to be excited about a great artist's life—but WP should keep an eye on efficiency, too, right? We do no one a service by being unnecessarily repetitive.
Personally, I could see the 2nd paragraph (entirely redundant, prematurely biographical) omitted, as well as the third paragraph's final sentence (which belongs near the end of the bio—it's practically a spoiler!). Anyone else feel this way? As architect Ludwig Mies van der Rohe put it: "Less is more." – AndyFielding (talk) 03:43, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

Seems fine as it is to me, but then it would, wouldn't it? The dozen or so other editors who reviewed the article for GA, peer review and FAC evidently concurred with me, but the views of all interested editors will of course be welcome. Tim riley talk 06:26, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

The intro seems fine to me. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:10, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

As a check, I have compared the length of this lead against those of twenty other featured articles about composers. They range from Debussy (349 words) to Tchaikovsky (527 words), and the average length is 422 words. Fauré weighs in at 408 – slightly less than par for the course. Word count is not everything, obviously, but it's a useful indicator, I think. – Tim riley talk 07:12, 2 June 2022 (UTC)