User talk:Sam Spade/ - archive May 2004

Hindutva

The NPOV notice was re-instated - after I removed it for lack of reason and explanation - by User:Fatalvenom. I suspect (but am not sure) this is yet another sock puppet of the Hindu nationalist of yesteryear User:LibertarianAnarchist (and Conradx, and Democrate2003, ...). I re-removed it. -- V V 01:56, 2 May 2004 (UTC)

anarchy

Thanks. :) So what do you want to do about the egalitarianism bit? I think it should be pulled from the intro and mentioned somewhere in the article as a goal of some anarchists (though it sort of is already). -- V V 01:46, 3 May 2004 (UTC)

Political subjects are the hot potatoes of Wikipedia, and attract all sorts of horrors, but I think the NPOV policy is a good enough guide. We can describe what actual anarchists think, and that should do it. Illuminating direct quotes from self-described anarchists, properly attributed, would certainly be acceptable and might be helpful in this regard. And politicians may lie, but political science is about how to organize government (or in this case the supposed lack of), which is not really about deception at all. No, I'm not an anarchist; I just got dragged into these articles because partisans were tampering with them. -- V V 04:48, 3 May 2004 (UTC)

Thanks

Re Assassin: No, please, go on. The thought of Bush, Rumsfeld, Blair and Straw in camos with rifles in Fallujah really does tickle me pink. :D

In any case, thanks again. Wally 17:56, 3 May 2004 (UTC)

By the way, just one last thing. I've been poking around here quite a bit, and I've become impressed with the work done by the Association of Members' Advocates. While the information page says that membership is open to anyone, I've worked too long in local party politics not to know that there are rules (shakes head) and then there are rules (nods). Basically, then, I'm informally asking for advice from you, a current member, as to whether I'm active, effective and experienced at Wikipedia to qualify as a good AMA member. Obviously, I am interested in the investigation of such contentious issues, and as an avowed debater I enjoy both argumentation and discussion, but I'm not quite sure I've done enough to give the position the due respect to which it is owed, or understand the nuances of the place enough, or have ingratiated myself into the community enough, etc. (I can't even find how to sign up to the damn e-mail list) Any advice you could render thereto would be extremely helpful. Wally 18:41, 3 May 2004 (UTC)

That should about do it - I put myself on the AMA list. I feel like a schoolboy on the first day of kindergarten, teehee! :D Thanks again for all the help, and I look very much forward to working with you in the future.

Naturally, on the off chance I can ever render assistance, either, do not at all hesitate to hit me up. I would be ecstatic to oblige! Wally 00:07, 4 May 2004 (UTC)

Preference regarding homosexuality

Because of its history as a term describing a pathology, and, more generally, because of its relatively recent development, the general practice in gay-related articles is to avoid the word "homosexual" out of a sense that the term itself is POV. I'm not entirely convinced by this argument, and, if nothing else, I don't think that there are any completely NPOV terms, but it remains a word that one ought be a little careful using on Wikipedia, in that it's only going to make tempers rise. Since the term "straight" is pretty much in general usage (c.f. Queer Eye for the Straight Guy), it seemed needlessly inflammatory. Snowspinner 05:24, 4 May 2004 (UTC)

Heterosexuality is a gay related topic by virtue of it being on the List of gay-related topics, I'd imagine. As for terminology, it is standard practice to use politically correct terms for groups - Martin Luther King is described as an African-American - not as a black, a negro, a colored person, or anything else. The problem is that with sexual orientation, there isn't really a generally accepted term, which makes everything complicated. ("Gay" has some acceptance, but it's typically considered lacking in that it doesn't cover lesbians. Gay/Lesbian/Bisexual/Transgender is also used in some spaces, but it's such a mouthful.) Regardless, there is a substantial number of Wikipedians who find the term offensive and POV. You can probably find one of the threads where this is discussed and bring it up with them if you like, but otherwise, it's probably best to let sleeping dogs lie - especially when the term isn't particularly needed, as in this case. As for straight - as I said, the term has pretty much entered general usage, especially with recent television shows. Indeed, "Queer", "Gay", "Bi", "Lesbian", and "Straight" are probably the most commonly used terms in general conversation nowadays, so perhaps they're the best ones to use in general.

/shrug. I don't pretend to have a complete answer to this one. I just knew the word was a red flag to a lot of people, and figured that it was a fight that could be avoided - especially since it wasn't really a wholly accurate title, what with straight being in the common parlance. Snowspinner 05:38, 4 May 2004 (UTC)

Foolishness

Stop advancing a racist agenda, and furthermore stop vandalizing my talk page. thanks jack. GrazingshipIV 21:14, May 4, 2004 (UTC)

Although it was poor form of Grazing to delete your talk page to make his point, he does have a valid one - you ought not go deleting things from his talk page, regardless of how offensive you find them. If he's offensive on other pages, you have grounds to complain, but one is typically considered to be allowed to criticize other users on one's own talk page. (c.f. User:Wik)Snowspinner 22:25, 4 May 2004 (UTC)

Actually I called you a white seperatist which according to you is not racist. You are no one to talk about policy. Eitherway, please stop editing my user page. thanks. ;) GrazingshipIV 00:01, May 7, 2004 (UTC)

style

"Sexuality Avoid homosexuality and thus heterosexuality, use alternatives such as gay/lesbian/bisexual/straight/same-sex/different-sex. Avoid the use of queer (or any term) as being most inclusive." - Wikipedia:Manual of Style

RfC

What is RfC? Where did I sign where I was not supposed to? Get-back-world-respect 22:06, 6 May 2004 (UTC)

Thanks, deleted it. Message for you at my talk page. Get-back-world-respect 23:08, 6 May 2004 (UTC)

Troll

Actually I called you a white seperatist which according to you is not racist. You are no one to talk about policy. Eitherway, please stop editing my user page. thanks. ;) GrazingshipIV 00:01, May 7, 2004 (UTC)

regarding your last comment

Is this in regard of me forgettin to summarize? Or were there more wiki-mores I broke?

Welcome Crag

Thanks for the welcome, Sam! -- Crag 18:55, 2004 May 11 (UTC)

Danny

Sam, my opinions of everyone are capable of changing. Danny 10:58, 12 May 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for the welcome!

Hi there! Thanks! Seems like there's some work to be done on the dinosaur pages here! Will have a go, Tyrannosaurus roll 15:54, 12 May 2004 (UTC)

The name is a sad joke from my undergrad days when the paleo-biologists would hold parties entitled 'Tyrannosaurus Rock' or other such juvenillia. It seemed pretty funny, in a geeky sort of way, my name is a variant on that. Hope you like it, Mark Richards 16:59, 12 May 2004 (UTC)

RfC

You're right, I should not have removed your endorsement of Danny's summary. When I review my edit I'm not quite sure why I did it, but I clearly shouldn't have. My fault entirely.

I will, however, continue to refactor the page as necessary; if I screw up egregiously again, please don't hesitate to let me know. —No-One  Jones 17:09, 12 May 2004 (UTC)

My personal feeling is that Grazingship should remove the entire thing, both your comment and his. Removing yours and leaving his would not comply with what I meant. I doubt that he would choose to remove his and leave yours. And I saw your new post that he removed. --Michael Snow 17:45, 12 May 2004 (UTC)

I do not think that you will get very far reading my call for you to be smacked upside the head as anything other than metaphoric, though if you want to attempt to escalate the matter, I would probably find the matter dryly amusing at the least. As for the scope of my endorsement, I added my name to Graz's response only - that is not an endorsement of everything he says on the page. It's an agreement with his summary of events there. Snowspinner 18:21, 12 May 2004 (UTC)

review, subject coordination et al.

Hello Sam! I have no idea why you contacted me or who you are. I'm glad, however, that you did. Thank you!

I qualified as as an actuary (F.I.A.) in 1969 and have spent most of my professional career in Canada (my current country of residence). I have worked as an employee and a consultant in most actuarial practice areas.

Just for fun, I looked at the entry on life insurance. It is a stub and was not very good: it contained some errors. I have corrrected its errors and added some "rounding out" text. Also, I did some other related checks. Inter alia, I was interested (and dismayed) to read that deaths follow a Normal Distribution!! This is utter nonsense.

I have the time, interest and knowledge to do something about these matters. Does Wikipedia have the concept of a subject leader, editor or expert resource? To whom do I speak about this matter?

I do not expect you to regurgitate text already on the site. Just point me in the correct direction. Lest I seem unduly selfish, I am also interested in any comments you may have about your activities or Wikipedia in general et cetera.

all the best, robert?! r_h_c 18:06, 13 May 2004 (UTC)

Mirv

Hi Sam, could you wander on over to Wikipedia talk:Requests for comment/GrazingshipIV#Re: Statement of the dispute and comment there please? Thanks. —No-One  Jones 04:04, 14 May 2004 (UTC)

Rednecks

Yeah, I find that additionally amusing considering that American Indians were traditionally described as "red", which would presumably apply as much to their necks as to anything else. Further, most actual American Indians living today are country folk, so they might could be described as "rednecks" on sociological rather than racial grounds. Maybe the census will eventually come up with a unified "Native American, Inuit, Aleut, or Hillbilly" category. This would be no more crazy than grouping "Asian" Pakistanis together with "Asian" Japanese.

PS - With regard to heteronormativity, I've been trying to avoid it. The page, I mean, not the normativity. - Nat Kraus e 10:15, 14 May 2004 (UTC)

Danny

User:GrazingshipIV has removed his comment about you from his page. Would you be amenable to removing the RfC page now, so that we can all get back to the real work of creating an encyclopedia? Danny 19:30, 15 May 2004 (UTC)

Thanks. Danny 19:47, 15 May 2004 (UTC)

Style Guide

You know full well this is a controversial edit, Sam. And you know full well that that policy applies to articles, not to Wikipedia policy. I don't think that one is really encouraged to be bold in altering Wikipedia policy. Come on, Sam. Don't treat me as the goddamn enemy. I've been arguing compromises that include your point of view on countless articles. I've worked for consensus. So don't go claiming I'm anti-wiki because I'm not letting your revisions to Wikipedia policy go through prior to discussion, Sam. It's beneath you. Snowspinner 20:42, 15 May 2004 (UTC)

Insinuations

I'm not sure what insinuations you're referring to. Nor am I sure why you find me to be a POV pusher. I can perhaps understand why I might be found rude, but, honestly, I've been no more forceful in articles than you have been. I'm sorry that you've decided to avoid articles that I'm involved in the editing of. I think that, despite the heated words we can occasionally get into, that articles we've both worked on have been substantially improved by it. Heteronormativity and Anarchism both spring to mind immediately as articles that are much better from both of us working on them, and, frankly, from butting heads on edits. I think that consensus is frequently hammered out when two people are both forceful but willing to hear and try to respect the other side's views. I don't like many of your views. I don't like the way in which you relate to and communicate with many other Wikipedians. But I respect your edits and your contributions, and I think that Wikipedia is a better encyclopedia because you've chosen to edit it. And I've defended that view both publicly and privately.

I would ask that you offer the same respect. Snowspinner 22:04, 15 May 2004 (UTC)

I apologize for my initial response to you on Heteronormativity. Understand that this was A) A product of being new to Wikipedia, and B) A product of a refreshingly wrong assumption, which was that this was another instance of fundamentalist anti-gay rhetoric being thrown around without any regard for context. As i said then, and continue to say now, I think the objections section that I deleted could be a fine section in a different article.

As for the rest of things, I don't think I've gotten in any revert wars with you on articles proper recently. The style manual, I think, is a special case - it's not an article, it's a policy, and it ought not be changed prior to consensus. Articles, I'm all for being bold on, as you've noticed. Policy, I'd like to see some discussion prior to boldness, or else we're going to have a much wider spread chaos on Wikipedia than we already do. I'm not even necessarily averse to the change you want to make to the style manual. I just want to have it discussed before it gets put in.

Not sure what there is to say beyond that. My default position with other editors is to respect them. In the case of you, I think that we're more alike than you care to admit. We both represent viewpoints that are underrepresented on Wikipedia, and we're both aggressive in trying to make sure that those views are adequately heard - not dominant, but represented and represented fairly. And we're both, perhaps, a little too prone to rubbing people the wrong way in trying to do that.

I've got no beef with you, Sam, and I don't want one. Take care. Snowspinner 22:30, 15 May 2004 (UTC)

User Page Intrusion

Do not put anything into my user page. I wanted my name on Wikipedia to remain permanently in red type. Denelson83 00:27, 16 May 2004 (UTC)

Indeed, my guess is that Sam probably meant to put that on your talk page...

Well, that's where it should have gone. I have now listed my user page on Wikipedia:Speedy deletions. Denelson83 00:29, 16 May 2004 (UTC)

re: normativity

I more or less second your comments. Making new pages and fixing obscure ones is the best part of the wikipedia experience, and I spend too much time getting distracted by other things. I still get involved with pages like neofeudalism and wealth condensation from time to time, because they are ridiculously bad -- with the stakes so long, I don't think they can generate too much stress, and its sort of fun to go a couple rounds with their instigators. The problem with trolls and "majority POV chasing off those who differ" is that they are opposite sides of the same problem. How do you deal with one side without the other side running wild? When I look at my involvement on Origins of the American Civil War, am I the troll or am I "those who differ" getting driven away by the majority? In the end it didn't matter because I was not sufficiently prepared to defend my position. Anyway, I haven't been here long enough to have anything like an opinion on how to improve things, but I'll keep thinking about it as I become more experienced. - Nat Kraus e 05:45, 16 May 2004 (UTC)

income redistribution

Tsk. Wealth redistribution is the meta issue. income redistribution is only one element of wealth distribution. The recent redirect is in completely the wrong direction; the right article has been thrown away, the wrong (or at least subsidiary) has been retained. Bah. (IMHO &c. Inheritance tax, benefits, social housing, right to roam ... all arguably as about wealth redistribution. So is overseas aid, CAP, regional development funds &c &c &c). Any possibility that you'd agree to reversing the redirect? --Tagishsimon

Good man. Or woman. I'll make a cup of tea, consult Clause 4, and get on with it... --Tagishsimon re-arranges words: mouth, big, keep, shut

Pointers

Thanks for the pointers! --Russell j 04:20, 17 May 2004 (UTC)

Your welcome to me !

Many thanks for the message Sam. I am still trying to find my way round - I suspect I may be so occupied for a while yet!

I am amazed at the objectives and scope of this project. I am keen to contribute, with edits if not with raw data. I spot typo's and grammatical errors very quickly, but am a bit impatient with contributors who will not use a spell-checker before they post.

How does the site cope with disingenuous individuals who behave like hackers? I can't imagine that even with around 300 moderators it is possible to intercept every two year old wishing to become famous instantly!

I moderate at mind-brain.com so I know some of the pitfalls.

How did you spot that I am a newbie? I will try to do the same for other newbies once I become established, and presuming I do things properly at wiki.

Anyway, thanks again and maybe we can 'chat again too!

All the best, rhymer [Bill].

Jon Nielsen

Thanks, Sam, for the introduction. I look forward to reading the articles you referenced.

Jon Nielsen 03:17, 19 May 2004 (UTC)

re:welcome

thanks. i just found the site today. it looks like EVERYTHING has been thought of. ☺ i did see a few articles that could stand for some tweaking & filling out a bit. i have about a million questions, so the links are appreciated. ☺

hank williams III article question

i don't know if this place [1] has any affiliation w/wikipedia. but, the entire hank III article is there, word for word. i'm not sure which came 1st. i'm, obviously not sure what to do about it. any advice or info would be greatly appreciated. also, does this place have ANY private space? ☺ thanks.

oops. :) thanks, sam. sorry about that. would you mind checking my User:Kamai40 to see if it's all proper & junk? :) thanks again. --kamai40 04:47, 19 May 2004 (UTC)

Thanks

Sam, Thanks for the warm welcome, I will be sure to check out those links.

Thanks again, Alphagastrolphis 05:47, 19 May 2004 (UTC)

Thanks

Thank you Sam, for the welcome. As you will see, I'm quite familiar with Wikipedia now and I've just connected with a few more languages recently. I can give a hand whenever possible, particularly with the interwikis. Please come and visit my French page some time. Robin des Bois ♘ ➳ ✉ 09:36, 19 May 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for the message

As you can gather I am new at this . The whole concept is great. I am assuming you sent the links for info not because I was doing something wrong. If I am please let me know

Thanks again

thanks - My first time - every page i created got deleted but hey i will keep going. Tell me there is a page that is named incorrectly - Port Phillip Bay should just be Port Phillip but I dont know how to fix any clues 11:30, 19 May 2004 . . User:Bayside

Abuse

I put up with it because I have no choice but to. What would you have me do? Anyway I'm a big girl, i can take it. I just laugh it off now, I find laughing teasing and generally adopting a couldn't care less attitide keeps me sane.

Theresa

No I won't find other areas of wikipedia to concentrate on. Someone has to stand up to people like this, and like I said on the mailing list last week, i aint afraid of nobody. Yeah you're right i have reacted, when it would have been wiser not to, but i'm only human.Thanks for your kind words, it's nice to have support theresa knott 01:52, 21 May 2004 (UTC)

Me naked

Sam how would that be a threat eh? They should consider it a treat no?

But no, I didn't say anything of the sort. I said to irismeister "you fancy me don't you?" after one of his rants. And then I said "you fantasize about me in the uniform don't you?" after he called me a wikicop. I was trying to lighten the mood, most people take a joke in the way it was intended, laugh, then ease up a bit. He didn't. I was sorely tempted to say something on the lines of "you want me in the bath covered in bubbles" after he mistakenly spelled leather as lather, but i didn't actually say it, it would have been too much. (but it would have been funny don't you think?)

I see what happens after MNH requests for comments for me has had a few days to settle before i consider taking him to the AC again, irismeister has already been listed by James.

Interwikis

Hey Sam, How nice of you to answer me in French! I'm not sure, but you appeared to express that you knew very little about interwikis ? They are the links that we put at the top or the bottom of an article to link it to the same article in different languages. Isn't it how you call them en English? Robin des Bois ♘ ➳ ✉ 01:19, 20 May 2004 (UTC)

Hi again, yes your are quite right. When you look at the top and the bottom of an article, you see links with names of languages. They indicate in which languages you may find the same article. When you edit an article you see a list of these usually at the end :

[[en:Mythology]]
 [[fr:Mythologia]]
 [[it:Mitologia]]
 ...

That's the way you can link the articles. Check that article about interwikis to learn more. Indeed, they are very useful, and that is why I bother to link articles whenever possible. The versions between languages is never completely the same since they are created by communities of different languages so each of them may bring details that another language forgot. Ain't it grand! But standardizing them would take a considerable amount of energy and since articles evolve so quickly, it becomes hard to keep up with all available languages. Have fun now!

Kamai40

wow. that piece was awesome! very thorough & VERY well put together. :) i'ts gonna be awhile before i'm ready for a whole article, i think. need to work on my organizational skills. :) i'm so jazzed about this place, i'm worried about giving off a punter kinda vibe. :) we do have quite a bit in common. :) is it just me, or is ohio the SHIT?! :) i was answering you last nite when our power went out from the storms. it was off till 7:am! have you guys got the cicadas, yet? is it bad? [i'm terrified of bugs.:)] i do have another question: when using song lyrics, what is the proper way to format copyright info? also, is there anyway to save work in progress without it being visible in the encyclopedia? thanks, & please let me know if i am buggin you.

i'm in columbus. born & raised in ironton...now THAT sucked! :) i love ohio. would never consider leaving. this, in my opinion, is GOD's country. :) i think i may have been to dayton once. my son was there @ the air/space museum. do you have a journal, or web page? if not, you may want to consider [2] journal space. [i can't figure out how to do links right yet.] i say so because you seem to have a lot to say & JS offers a great platform & TONS of freedom. also, great exposure. i think you would really do well there. you should check it out. :) thanks for the link. it was a big help. :) --kamai40 04:38, 20 May 2004 (UTC)

am I doing this right?

Hi! Thanks for your note. Check the Talk:Catholicism page; I have an idea about how the files ought to be organized. Tell me what you think. And I'll look at your stuff! Trc

thanks for your help!

Thanks for having a look at my suggestion tonight, Sam Spade! I'm glad I didn't make a big mess of it. My reasoning is that the term "Catholic Church" has always had a special meaning to what we call the RCC. It took on more meanings with the passage of time. Calling it the RCC is in some sense a bit of a misnomer. And, calling it the "CC" doesn't imply that there aren't parts of it that are in communion. Anyway, little by little, the collective writing project gets better. I think you made a good re-write there, of 'criticisms'. That part was bothering me too. Trc 07:15, 21 May 2004 (UTC)

Thanks

Thanks for the vandalism revert. Snowspinner 13:16, 21 May 2004 (UTC)

Talk page protection

I'll repost this here as well:

• Eeeeeek! How did I protect this page?!? GAAH. This stupid thing should have a warning, or at least a big prominent notice ex post facto. A thousand apologies; I am deeply embarassed. =( - Fennec (さばくのきつね) 19:29, May 22, 2004 (UTC)

Hi back

I got your message. Sorry for putting unfinished work on public display. I will try to make a stable release and remove the stub message asap, meaning perhaps next week or so. Peter Kwok 23:37, 2004 May 22 (UTC)

Anti-French article

Hi, I don't appreciate your reverting me on the Anti-French article. That section contributes nothing to the understand of the subject and only serves to perpetuate appalling stereotypes. It is a collection of bad clichés disguised as opinions, none of which are attributed, with no explanation of the origins of such sentiments. If you would care to discuss this with me or anyone else on the Talk page, you'd be most welcome, but please don't revert my removal of that text. Thanks. -- Viajero 18:11, 24 May 2004 (UTC)

Neither do I. I don't see the difference between personal attacks on another user and attacks on a whole nations. As far as me being an arbitrator, ignore that, makes no difference in this context. Fred Bauder 19:32, May 24, 2004 (UTC)

P.S. David.Monniaux wrote most of what you deleted, check the edit history. He is French, BTW

incidently Sam, the fact David is french does not give more "value" or weight to what he writes about how *american* people feel about us. SweetLittleFluffyThing

Reply

This is Acad Ronin: Thanks for the welcome. General advice or is there something I am screwing up in particular that I should learn not to do? :-) Acad Ronin 17:50, 25 May 2004 (UTC)

attention où tu met les pieds avec Sam

That was Anthere's comment. I think you'll have to ask the Sweet Little Fluffy Thing. ;-) -- Cecropia | Talk 03:55, 26 May 2004 (UTC)

Pic of the day

It's meant to have two extra brackets, but not the four I originally put in. It now automatically updates at the start of each day. It currently looks like it's a day behind as it's showing the one you saw yesterday, but it'll catch up in quarter of an hour and show the correct one, with the next new one at the start of Friday. The {{CURRENTDAYNAME}} part of the code just makes it link to the right version of Template:Pic of the day as there are now (or will be soon) seven different pages, whereas the old one just linked to Template:Pic of the day and had to be manually updated at the right time each day. Angela . 23:46, May 26, 2004 (UTC)

ml

I have the interface of wikien-l open, but can't find under which email address you are. Can you tell me your user name on the mailing list ?

SweetLittleFluffyThing 01:36, 29 May 2004 (UTC)

I see it. Is it working now ?

~You can try by sending a mail yourself. Digest means you will receive a package of perhaps 10 mails together. So you might not get a digest until tomorrow.

Question

Hello thank you for your welcoming message. I am a new user, and I was wondering how to create a prolife page with my log in name (Frenchy). Do I simply create a new wiki page with my screen name (which seems pretty unlikely, since some users' names probably matches some wikipedia entry). I know you must receive tons of messages, and I feel a bit sorry for using some of your time, but I would truly appreciate if you answered to my question so I can edit a little profile about myself. Thank you very much

Frédéric

P.S. Sorry if the English sounds funny, it's only my 2nd language.

Thanks

Hi

Thanks for reasonable criticism and maturely helping me work through the process.

Cheers Jamie

Camipco 07:06, 30 May 2004 (UTC)