Talk:Donald Trump

Current consensus

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01. Use the official White House portrait as the infobox image. (Dec 2016, Jan 2017, Oct 2017, March 2020) (temporarily suspended by #19 following copyright issues on the inauguration portrait, enforced when an official public-domain portrait was released on 31 October 2017)

02. Show birthplace as "Queens, New York City, U.S." in the infobox. (Nov 2016, Oct 2018, Feb 2021) "New York City" de-linked. (September 2020)

03. Omit reference to county-level election statistics. (Dec 2016)

04. Superseded by #15

Lead phrasing of Trump "gaining a majority of the U.S. Electoral College" and "receiving a smaller share of the popular vote nationwide", without quoting numbers. (Nov 2016, Dec 2016) (Superseded by #15 since 11 February 2017)

05. Use Trump's annual net worth evaluation and matching ranking, from the Forbes list of billionaires, not from monthly or "live" estimates. (Oct 2016) In the lead section, just write: Forbes estimates his net worth to be [$x.x] billion. (July 2018, July 2018) Removed from the lead per #47.

06. Do not include allegations of sexual misconduct in the lead section. (June 2016, Feb 2018)

07. Superseded by #35

Include "Many of his public statements were controversial or false." in the lead. (Sep 2016, February 2017, wording shortened per April 2017, upheld with July 2018) (superseded by #35 since 18 February 2019)

08. Mention that Trump is the first president elected "without prior military or government service". (Dec 2016)

09. Include a link to Trump's Twitter account in the "External links" section. (Jan 2017) Include a link to an archive of Trump's Twitter account in the "External links" section. (Jan 2021)

10. Canceled

Keep Barron Trump's name in the list of children and wikilink it, which redirects to his section in Family of Donald Trump per AfD consensus. (Jan 2017, Nov 2016) Canceled: Barron's BLP has existed since June 2019. (June 2024)

11. Superseded by #17

The lead sentence is "Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is an American businessman, television personality, politician, and the 45th President of the United States." (Jan 2017, Jan 2017, Jan 2017, Jan 2017, Jan 2017, Feb 2017) (superseded by #17 since 2 April 2017)

12. The article title is Donald Trump, not Donald J. Trump. (RM Jan 2017, RM June 2019)

13. Auto-archival is set for discussions with no comments for 14 days. Manual archival is allowed for (1) closed discussions, 24 hours after the closure, provided the closure has not been challenged, and (2) "answered" edit requests, 24 hours after the "answer", provided there has been no follow-on discussion after the "answer". (Jan 2017) (amended with respect to manual archiving, to better reflect common practice at this article) (Nov 2019)

14. Omit mention of Trump's alleged bathmophobia/fear of slopes. (Feb 2017)

15. Superseded by lead rewrite

Supersedes #4. There is no consensus to change the formulation of the paragraph which summarizes election results in the lead (starting with "Trump won the general election on November 8, 2016, …"). Accordingly the pre-RfC text (Diff 8 Jan 2017) has been restored, with minor adjustments to past tense (Diff 11 Feb 2018). No new changes should be applied without debate. (RfC Feb 2017, Jan 2017, Feb 2017, Feb 2017) In particular, there is no consensus to include any wording akin to "losing the popular vote". (RfC March 2017) (Superseded by local consensus on 26 May 2017 and lead section rewrite on 23 June 2017)

16. Superseded by lead rewrite

Do not mention Russian influence on the presidential election in the lead section. (RfC March 2017) (Superseded by lead section rewrite on 23 June 2017)

17. Superseded by #50

Supersedes #11. The lead paragraph is "Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is the 45th and current president of the United States. Before entering politics, he was a businessman and television personality." The hatnote is simply {{Other uses}}. (April 2017, RfC April 2017, April 2017, April 2017, April 2017, July 2017, Dec 2018) Amended by lead section rewrite on 23 June 2017 and removal of inauguration date on 4 July 2018. Lower-case "p" in "president" per Dec 2018 and MOS:JOBTITLES RfC Oct 2017. Wikilinks modified per April 2020. Wikilink modified again per July 2020. "45th" de-linked. (Jan 2021)

18. Superseded by #63

The "Alma mater" infobox entry shows "Wharton School (BS Econ.)", does not mention Fordham University. (April 2017, April 2017, Aug 2020, Dec 2020)

19. Obsolete

Following deletion of Trump's official White House portrait for copyright reasons on 2 June 2017, infobox image was replaced by File:Donald Trump Pentagon 2017.jpg. (June 2017 for replacement, June 2017, declined REFUND on 11 June 2017) (replaced by White House official public-domain portrait according to #1 since 31 Oct 2017)

20. Mention protests in the lead section with this exact wording: His election and policies have sparked numerous protests. (June 2017, May 2018) (Note: In February 2021, when he was no longer president, the verb tense was changed from "have sparked" to "sparked", without objection.)

21. Superseded by #39

Omit any opinions about Trump's psychology held by mental health academics or professionals who have not examined him. (July 2017, Aug 2017) (superseded by #36 on 18 June 2019, then by #39 since 20 Aug 2019)

22. Do not call Trump a "liar" in Wikipedia's voice. Falsehoods he uttered can be mentioned, while being mindful of calling them "lies", which implies malicious intent. (RfC Aug 2017, upheld by RfC July 2024)

23. Superseded by #52

The lead includes the following sentence: Trump ordered a travel ban on citizens from several Muslim-majority countries, citing security concerns; after legal challenges, the Supreme Court upheld the policy's third revision. (Aug 2017, Nov 2017, Dec 2017, Jan 2018, Jan 2018) Wording updated (July 2018) and again (Sep 2018).

24. Superseded by #30

Do not include allegations of racism in the lead. (Feb 2018) (superseded by #30 since 16 Aug 2018)

25. In citations, do not code the archive-related parameters for sources that are not dead. (Dec 2017, March 2018)

26. Do not include opinions by Michael Hayden and Michael Morell that Trump is a "useful fool […] manipulated by Moscow" or an "unwitting agent of the Russian Federation". (RfC April 2018)

27. State that Trump falsely claimed that Hillary Clinton started the Barack Obama birther rumors. (April 2018, June 2018)

28. Include, in the Wealth section, a sentence on Jonathan Greenberg's allegation that Trump deceived him in order to get on the Forbes 400 list. (June 2018, June 2018)

29. Include material about the Trump administration family separation policy in the article. (June 2018)

30. Supersedes #24. The lead includes: "Many of his comments and actions have been characterized as racially charged or racist." (RfC Sep 2018, Oct 2018, RfC May 2019)

31. Do not mention Trump's office space donation to Jesse Jackson's Rainbow/Push Coalition in 1999. (Nov 2018)

32. Omit from the lead the fact that Trump is the first sitting U.S. president to meet with a North Korean supreme leader. (RfC July 2018, Nov 2018)

33. Do not mention "birtherism" in the lead section. (RfC Nov 2018)

34. Refer to Ivana Zelníčková as a Czech model, with a link to Czechs (people), not Czechoslovakia (country). (Jan 2019)

35. Superseded by #49

Supersedes #7. Include in the lead: Trump has made many false or misleading statements during his campaign and presidency. The statements have been documented by fact-checkers, and the media have widely described the phenomenon as unprecedented in American politics. (RfC Feb 2019)

36. Superseded by #39

Include one paragraph merged from Health of Donald Trump describing views about Trump's psychology expressed by public figures, media sources, and mental health professionals who have not examined him. (June 2019) (paragraph removed per RfC Aug 2019 yielding consensus #39)

37. Resolved: Content related to Trump's presidency should be limited to summary-level about things that are likely to have a lasting impact on his life and/or long-term presidential legacy. If something is borderline or debatable, the resolution does not apply. (June 2019)

38. Do not state in the lead that Trump is the wealthiest U.S. president ever. (RfC June 2019)

39. Supersedes #21 and #36. Do not include any paragraph regarding Trump's mental health or mental fitness for office. Do not bring up for discussion again until an announced formal diagnosis or WP:MEDRS-level sources are provided. This does not prevent inclusion of content about temperamental fitness for office. (RfC Aug 2019, July 2021)

40. Include, when discussing Trump's exercise or the lack thereof: He has called golfing his "primary form of exercise", although he usually does not walk the course. He considers exercise a waste of energy, because he believes the body is "like a battery, with a finite amount of energy" which is depleted by exercise. (RfC Aug 2019)

41. Omit book authorship (or lack thereof) from the lead section. (RfC Nov 2019)

42. House and Senate outcomes of the impeachment process are separated by a full stop. For example: He was impeached by the House on December 18, 2019, for abuse of power and obstruction of Congress. He was acquitted of both charges by the Senate on February 5, 2020. (Feb 2020)

43. The rules for edits to the lead are no different from those for edits below the lead. For edits that do not conflict with existing consensus: Prior consensus is NOT required. BOLD edits are allowed, subject to normal BRD process. The mere fact that an edit has not been discussed is not a valid reason to revert it. (March 2020)

44. The lead section should mention North Korea, focusing on Trump's meetings with Kim and some degree of clarification that they haven't produced clear results. (RfC May 2020)

45. Superseded by #48

There is no consensus to mention the COVID-19 pandemic in the lead section. (RfC May 2020, July 2020) (Superseded by RfC Aug 2020)

46. Use the caption "Official portrait, 2017" for the infobox image. (Aug 2020, Jan 2021)

47. Do not mention Trump's net worth or Forbes ranking (or equivalents from other publications) in the lead, nor in the infobox. (Sep 2020)

48. Supersedes #45. Trump's reaction to the COVID-19 pandemic should be mentioned in the lead section. There is no consensus on specific wording, but the status quo is Trump reacted slowly to the COVID-19 pandemic; he minimized the threat, ignored or contradicted many recommendations from health officials, and promoted false information about unproven treatments and the availability of testing. (Oct 2020, RfC Aug 2020)

49. Supersedes #35. Include in lead: Trump has made many false and misleading statements during his campaigns and presidency, to a degree unprecedented in American politics. (Dec 2020)

50. Supersedes #17. The lead sentence is: Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is an American politician, media personality, and businessman who served as the 45th president of the United States from 2017 to 2021. (March 2021), amended (July 2021), inclusion of politician (RfC September 2021)

51. Include in the lead that many of Trump's comments and actions have been characterized as misogynistic. (Aug 2021 and Sep 2021)

52. Supersedes #23. The lead should contain a summary of Trump's actions on immigration, including the Muslim travel ban (cf. item 23), the wall, and the family separation policy. (September 2021)

53. The lead should mention that Trump promotes conspiracy theories. (RfC October 2021)

54. Include in the lead that, quote, Scholars and historians rank Trump as one of the worst presidents in U.S. history. (RfC October 2021)

55. Regarding Trump's comments on the 2017 far-right rally in Charlottesville, Virginia, do not wiki-link "Trump's comments" in this manner. (RfC December 2021)

56. Retain the content that Trump never confronted Putin over its alleged bounties against American soldiers in Afghanistan but add context. Current wording can be altered or contextualized; no consensus was achieved on alternate wordings. (RfC November 2021) Trump's expressions of doubt regarding the Russian Bounties Program should be included in some capacity, though there there is no consensus on a specific way to characterize these expressed doubts. (RfC March 2022)

57. Do not mention in the lead Gallup polling that states Trump's the only president to never reach 50% approval rating. (RfC January 2022)

58. Use inline citations in the lead for the more contentious and controversial statements. Editors should further discuss which sentences would benefit from having inline citations. (RfC May 2022, discussion on what to cite May 2022)

59. Do not label or categorize Trump as a far-right politician. (RfC August 2022)

60. Insert the links described in the RfC January 2023.

61. When a thread is started with a general assertion that the article is biased for or against Trump (i.e., without a specific, policy-based suggestion for a change to the article), it is to be handled as follows:

1. Reply briefly with a link to Talk:Donald Trump/Response to claims of bias.
2. Close the thread using {{archive top}} and {{archive bottom}}, referring to this consensus item.
3. Wait at least 24 hours per current consensus #13.
4. Manually archive the thread.

This does not apply to posts that are clearly in bad faith, which are to be removed on sight. (May 2023)

62. The article's description of the five people who died during and subsequent to the January 6 Capitol attack should avoid a) mentioning the causes of death and b) an explicit mention of the Capitol Police Officer who died. (RfC July 2023)

63. Supersedes #18. The alma mater field of the infobox reads: "University of Pennsylvania (BS)". (September 2023)

64. Omit the {{Very long}} tag. (January 2024)

65. Mention the Abraham Accords in the article; no consensus was achieved on specific wordings. (RfC February 2024)

66. Omit {{infobox criminal}}. (RfC June 2024)

67. The "Health habits" section includes: "Trump says he has never drunk alcohol, smoked cigarettes, or used drugs. He sleeps about four or five hours a night." (February 2021)

Can we add some positive things about his presidency to this article?

I’m not a fan of Trump but this article is so biased. Can we add some positive things to the first portion of this article? At least mention forcing NATO countries into paying, positive economic growth, or fairly fast economic COVID recovery compared to other first world nations, or something neutral like tax cuts or recognizing Jerusalem as Israel’s capital. There are positives and negatives to even the worst presidents, but the first portion of this article reads like something straight out of Mother Jones. Don’t pretend like Trump hasn’t done like one or two good things. C9crab (talk) 06:43, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Could you be more specific? If you can share some examples, perhaps it will gain consensus to be added. DN (talk) 08:31, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

I think I can help C9Crab a bit with an example. Currently on this talk page there's a proposed positive thing that needs help getting in the article. It was previously put in the article and reverted. It's in the talk page section Support for Trump's missile strike in Syria. Bob K31416 (talk) 18:01, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

I notice the founding of the space force isn't mentioned anywhere in the article despite being significant. The Abraham Accords could have a mention in the lead. Increased funding for NASA, the Artemis program, and the Artemis accords are significant things that could be mentioned in the article but aren't. Anotherperson123 (talk) 18:18, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

If you want to add something "positive" to the lead, I'm not sure that recognition of Jerusalem as the capital city really fits the bill. The move was highly controversial, and widely condemned by world leaders.

What some may consider positive, others may see as negative, and vice versa. Either way, this sounds like a call for WP:FALSEBALANCE which goes against policy. 72.14.126.22 (talk) 18:04, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps you're mistaking false balance with NPOV?

WP:FALSEBALANCE states that "Conspiracy theories, pseudoscience, speculative history, or plausible but unaccepted theories should not be legitimized." For example, we shouldn't try to legitimize the Flat Earth conspiracy theory by giving it equal weight through comparison to widely accepted science. However, Donald Trump does not fit any criteria listed on WP:FALSEBALANCE -- he's a candidate for the presidency of the U.S who is widely disliked, but is also equally liked, based on the fact that he and Kamala Harris are basically tied in the polls. His presidency from 2017-2021 included positive and negative aspects, as with practically every presidency, and this article should reflect that in accordance with NPOV. C9crab (talk) 22:22, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

FALSEBALANCE is a part of NPOV. It leads with While it is important to account for all significant viewpoints on any topic, Wikipedia policy does not state or imply that every minority view, fringe theory, or extraordinary claim needs to be presented along with commonly accepted mainstream scholarship as if they were of equal validity. Balancing negatives with positives to make it less negative is FALSEBALANCE. We go by WP:DUE. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:31, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

If you think Donald Trump is a “ minority view, fringe theory, or extraordinary claim” then prepare to be amazed that 70,000,000+ people thought that Donald Trump aligned with their beliefs and voted for him in 2020. Making his article reflect both the good and bad of his presidency isn’t FALSEBALANCE, FALSEBALANCE is meant to be applied to actual “minority” or “fringe” views that go against widely refuted ideas, among those being flat earth. C9crab (talk) 07:31, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

Beliefs and opinions, may or may not be DUE. DN (talk) 08:17, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

nnnnn 207.174.237.68 (talk) 15:39, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

"Equally-liked" and "tied in the polls" are not the criteria by which we judge inclusion or exclusion of material in a Wikipedia article. If you approach this as a popularity contest, prepare to be disappointed when your suggestions for article additions go nowhere. Zaathras (talk) 22:33, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

This isn’t about a popularity contest, it’s about making an article fair and balanced in alignment with NPOV. Not sure what you’re not understanding. C9crab (talk) 07:33, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

Trying to make Wikipedia an objective and bipartisan website is like trying to boil the ocean. Freespeech2024 (talk) 03:45, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

Especially if they deny climate change. DN (talk) 03:50, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

The climate is and always has been changing, could you please elaborate more than describing what's been occurring on Earth since it was formed approximately 4+ billion years ago. Thank you comrade. 104.230.247.132 (talk) 15:05, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

@C9crab: I will quote what another user said in a similar conversation about a request to add more positive statements to the Laura Loomer Wikipedia article.

In that discussion, Aquillion wrote: Your argument above seems to misunderstand how balance on Wikipedia works - our job is to reflect the overall tone, focus, and weight of the highest-quality sources available. If those sources are overwhelmingly negative, then a balanced lead will also be overwhelmingly negative ...

For the most part, it seems that the things that get considerable and persistent coverage by the press are also the things that will get more weight and coverage here on Wikipedia. That's what I meant when talking about false balance in a previous comment. 72.14.126.22 (talk) 02:06, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

1) "forcing NATO countries into paying" - this is based on Trump's own mischaracterization of how NATO is funded. The actual payments (direct funding) have always been made. What some countries are failing to do is meet the military budget targets. There is no "payment" here, it is their own investment in their national militaries. 2) "positive economic growth" - Trump assumed office in the middle of a long term economic growth cycle, he can hardly claim this as his accomplishment. 3) "fast economic COVID recovery" - ummmm, the recovery came after he left office. 4) "tax cuts" - which were heavily skewed towards the top 1% with little lasting impact on the majority of the population 5)"recognizing Jerusalem" - thereby stirring up more trouble in the Middle East. I'm still waiting on you to mention something positive. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 12:12, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

He didn't participate in any wars during his presidency, making it one of the only ones in US history; this should be added, it's very positive. JacktheBrown (talk) 12:18, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

Are you serious? So who do you think nearly doubled the US forces in Afghanistan from January 2017 to January 2018? Who deployed 3000 US troops to Saudi Arabia in 2019? Etc, etc, etc. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 13:29, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

Trump leaves office and a year later Russia invades Ukraine and starts a continuing war, and 2 1/2 years after Trump left office Hamas makes a major attack on Israel with hostage taking which starts the continuing Gaza War that is currently being picked up by Hezbolloh from Lebanon with the beginnings of another war in progress. This wasn't happening when Trump was in office. Bob K31416 (talk) 16:00, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Russia had no need to invade Ukraine when Trump was appeasing Putin. And if you want to connect October 7 to Trump not being in office, there's a tag for you. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:17, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

LOL, really? Also no, let's not mock. Russia was in occupation of Crimea (that is an invasion of Ukraine), 11 terror attacks in 2017 (alone) in Israel what peace do you want us to add? Slatersteven (talk) 16:25, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Vios of WP:NOTFORUM, WP:AGF, WP:NPA, etc. ―Mandruss ☎ 01:32, 31 October 2024 (UTC)
Nah there is no way, Wikipedia says ONE good thing about Trump? No way. This place is inherently biased and is essentially a leftist propaganda arm. Yet Biden has been "sharp as a tack" until Kamala was declared the latest great thing and Biden was quickly forgotten. Fsckwiki (talk) 00:01, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

WP:NOTFORUM and WP:NPA vios. At least. ―Mandruss ☎ 04:08, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

This article is bias, so it’s fair to write negative speculative opinion based narrative, he was not impeached twice if it was thrown out, Covid he was right about knowing the numbers were inflated and the vaccine was not created by Pfizer or maderna it was NIH. So perhaps as president at the time he knew or knows more than you and the media. The so called J6 insurrection is a hoax and not once did he say to do any of the things that happened that day by patriots prior military personnel who love and fought for this country. The election was stolen with Covid to create mail in ballots to pad the numbers add in the dominion voting machines and how does Joe Biden get the most votes ever 81,000,000 is ridiculous when clearly you can see the votes being counted and all votes going to Biden when Trump was leading. Wikipedia is just more fake news narrative how about stick to the facts!! 2603:6080:D000:5688:E496:7D49:1F68:8C8B (talk) 03:39, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Here's a positive that was rejected. Trump scores a long-awaited coronavirus win with vaccines on the way Regarding the question, "Can we add some positive things about his presidency to this article?" I guess the answer is no. Bob K31416 (talk) 02:26, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

I guess the answer is no. Please WP:AGF. O3000, Ret. (talk) 16:34, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

AGF? This is Donald Trump we're talking about. There are no good things that came from his presidency, and that's supported by so many sources. LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contributions)} 23:09, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

One good thing came from the Trump presidency: the Electoral Count Reform and Presidential Transition Improvement Act of 2022, which we can indirectly credit to Trump and his attempts to steal the election. 72.14.126.22 (talk) 04:23, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

No it isn't. He made 4 peace deals, no new wars, expansion of economy, illegal immigration down, etc.

Biden on the otherhand.....numerous new waes, chaos in the world, russia is winning the war in Ukraine, cultural destruction, open borders of migrants, violent crime at multi decade highs, etc. 149.62.206.91 (talk) 10:50, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

No new wars does not mean no wars, and which peace deals did he make? Slatersteven (talk) 10:54, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

Reply to 149.62. The US crime rate has trended downward for decades, and recent data confirms this pattern. However, while the national violent crime rate decreased by 1.6% in 2022 compared to 2021, the property crime rate rose by 6.7%. Rates vary by region due to factors including urbanization levels, economic conditions, and law enforcement effectiveness. From usafacts.org--Updated on Fri, February 23, 2024 by the USAFacts Team Buster Seven Talk (UTC) 11:21, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

Lies as usual. The ABC tried to "fact check" Trump on that during the debate, and they lied.

The FBI recently revised data on violent crime from 2022 upwards. Original reporting had shown a 2.1 decrease in violent crime from 2021 to 2022. The new numbers show a 4.5 percent increase

So they waiting until well after past the debates and released the "corrected" report in the last moment before the election to cover up for the previous lies. Fsckwiki (talk) 23:56, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

I support mentioning Operation Warp Speed. Not sure why others don't, but I know it's been discussed. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:41, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

That tale does not tell anything "positive about Trump." What's positive is his unprecedented political skill - holding the GOP captive even while destroying what remained of it after the Bushes. Also, though it was not on his initiative, he continues the Republican corruption of the Federal judiciary, remarkably to his personal benefit. Most Americans may dislike those outcomes, but the are extraordinary personal achievements. SPECIFICO talk 17:46, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

I would support mentioning it (despite the fact that his involvement was basically just signing his name) if he hadn't spent the entire time flouting the suggetions of actual doctors, hosting what amounted to spreader events, and saying mind-numbingly stupid things like the idea of putting bleach into people. You don't get to claim credit for the science when you spend so much time denigrating it. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 17:55, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Odd things about Operation Warp Speed were that, IIRC, Pfizer, who developed the first usable Covid vaccine, was not a part of Operation Warp Speed. And the true genius who spent decades researching the concept of mRNA vaccines, winning the Nobel Prize for doing so, was an immigrant to the US but left due to lack of funds to complete the research. O3000, Ret. (talk) 22:07, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

It was branding. See Katalin Karikó (the genius O3000 mentioned), BioNTech, Pfizer–BioNTech, and "America first". Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 11:37, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Agreed Warp Speed should be mentioned. R. G. Checkers ^talk 18:35, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

If you have some examples, than I suppose you may add them (with consensus) in. Should Trump return to the White House on 20 January 2025. I suppose his second term, would gradually change the info in his bio. GoodDay (talk) 17:54, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

agreed. This is crazy biased and the more I see everything against him, the more I like him honestly (I've never been a big fan of his) this is pretty ridiculous 2605:A601:AF64:8000:A6CF:B505:D9F5:DE32 (talk) 02:11, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

I might agree with you if I understood little to nothing about Wikipedia policies and the underlying principles. I suggest you start at: Talk:Donald Trump/Response to claims of bias. Users can take that on board, or not, as they please. But we are not going to have yet another time-wasting extended discussion about this on this page. Avoidance of that is why the response page was created in the first place—after literally years of time-wasting extended discussions about this. ―Mandruss ☎ 02:26, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Another positive not in the article is that the leader of ISIS, Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, died in a raid by U.S. forces during Trump's presidency. From CNN,[1]

"Esper told CNN’s “State of the Union” Sunday morning that the President approved the raid 'late last week' after being presented with different options. The objective, Esper said, was capturing Baghdadi or if necessary, killing him.

'He reviewed them, asked some great questions, chose the option that we thought gave us the highest probability of success and confirmation that the head of ISIS would be there and either captured and killed and then we executed from there,' Esper said."

Bob K31416 (talk) 05:57, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

Did this change anything, was it a positive? Slatersteven (talk) 13:52, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

Also, he aced the cognitive test. Man, camera, chicken, TV. SPECIFICO talk 07:30, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

He was "top in his class" at the Wharton School too, right? But I think that claim has been debunked. He didn't even make the Dean's List? We could at least put in the lead that he falsely claimed to be first in his class. 72.14.126.22 (talk) 18:17, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

Jokes aside, would it make sense to mention the First Step Act? That wasn't a Trump accomplishment really, but it was something he signed. VQuakr (talk) 05:18, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

I think this is the problem, people are asking for positive achievements, not just signing something. Some he actually did, worked for. Slatersteven (talk) 11:15, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Well, we could add that to Donald Trump#Social issues right after mentioning that Trump supports the use of interrogation torture methods such as waterboarding, the Trump administration executed 13 prisoners, more than in the previous 56 years combined and after a 17-year moratorium, and Trump’s anti-marijuana actions. Or not. Bipartisan bill, and after Trump signed it, his DOJ was working hard not to release people and to put parolees back in prison. For example, a former inmate was singing Trump's praises at a WH presser while Trump’s DOJ was trying to send the man back to prison. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 14:58, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Not in the article is Trump orders strike on Syria in response to chemical attack, which begins with,

"President Donald Trump ordered a strike on Syria Friday in response to last weekend's chemical weapons attack.

Addressing the nation Friday evening, Trump said the strike was a joint operation with France and the United Kingdom.

'A short time ago, I ordered the United States Armed Forces to launch precision strikes on targets associated with the chemical weapons capabilities of Syrian dictator Bashar al-Assad,' Trump said.

Trump said that the 'massacre' last weekend in Syria 'was a significant escalation in a pattern of chemical weapons use by that very terrible regime.'

'The evil and the despicable attack left mothers and fathers, infants and children thrashing in pain and gasping for air. These are not the actions of a man,' Trump said, referring to Assad. 'They are crimes of a monster instead.' "

Bob K31416 (talk) 14:48, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

If this belongs anywhere, it would be in the presidential article. But it's mostly quotes from Trump. O3000, Ret. (talk) 15:04, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Actually, the missile strike is already in the article. My mistake. It's any mention of the support it got that is missing from the article whereas the article mentions criticism for Trump's other actions in Syria. See the Talk section Support for Trump's missile strike in Syria. Bob K31416 (talk) 16:19, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Just a general impression. This is an article, and it is in Wikipedia, but I don't think calling it a Wikipedia article would be appropriate. It's something else. Too much of an attack orientation. Just my opinion. And with that, I think I've spent enough time in this section. Best regards. Bob K31416 (talk) 18:48, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Are we talking about positive things or just things that have gotten support from somewhere? Slatersteven (talk) 18:54, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

IMO the more we talk about adding "positive things" the more it appears to look like a misinterpretation of policy. For example, it's not any editor's fault Trump chooses to promote conspiracies for his supporters who also appear to believe in them.

"When reputable sources contradict one another and are relatively equal in prominence, describe both points of view and work for balance." Where is the contradiction, AKA the positive perspective, among reliable sources? Wikipedia doesn't rely on sources that promote conspiracies, so in a way our hands are somewhat tied. DN (talk) 22:10, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

• "forcing NATO countries into paying" is just plain wrong and demonstrates you don't know how NATO works, recognising Jerusalem as Israel's capital is highly controversial and not followed by any major ally, and tax cuts for the rich is not "neutral". Don't pretend you're being neutral point of view with rubbish like this. AusLondonder (talk) 11:34, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

  Get ready to update this to "President Trump is the 45th and 47th President of the United States with the largest Electoral College victory in the entire history of the United States while also electing more Supreme Court Justices than any other President in US history." Enjoy champ. 104.230.247.132 (talk) 12:42, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

  What has this to do with adding passive things? Slatersteven (talk) 12:58, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

It really is so biased. If people can't agree on anything positive, at the very least the extreme negative hyperbole needs to be removed. The phrase "and unlike anything a political candidate has ever said in American history" regarding his public statements in his 2024 campaign made me laugh. Whoever added this to the article, are you aware that the US had presidents who were openly advocating for slavery and the KKK? RedrickSchu (talk) 22:27, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

You're citing the clause out of its context (His embrace of far-right extremism[713][714] and harsher rhetoric against his political enemies have been described by historians and scholars as populist, authoritarian, fascist,[b] and unlike anything a political candidate has ever said in the recent American history.[715][708][723]) You can easily look up "whoever" in the revision history, and they backed up the clause with three reliable sources that say "Never before has a presidential nominee openly suggested turning the military on Americans simply because they oppose his candidacy", "No major American presidential candidate has talked like he now does at his rallies — not Richard Nixon, not George Wallace, not even Donald Trump himself", and "Trump Is Speaking Like Hitler, Stalin, and Mussolini ... Until recently, this kind of language was not a normal part of American presidential politics." If you have any sources saying that this has been the norm or even happened before, please present them. If not, we have nothing to discuss here. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 10:34, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

While there's nothing wrong with that section, I think the "unlike anything a political candidate..." part could be improved. The longer an unquoted sentence goes on, the more it sounds like an opinion, even though it isn't. I tried to write a version which addresses this, but didn't have much luck. But I do think the word 'ever' can be removed, as it just adds confusion (between the whole of American history and recent American history).

The only real problem with it is people mistaking it for an opinion, which is what's happened here, right? This seems to be something which happens frequently in this article. 300AD (talk) 22:17, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Religion in Donald Trump's life

Hi. I added 57 words to the thin content of the Religion section. Since these words were reverted with concern about length and mentions elsewhere in article, please discuss the added content here and the quality of the Reliable sources involved:

1. Added that his family's church was "led by Norman Vincent Peale." -- This point is made by Kelsey Dallas, an award-winning religion journalist (Deseret News), in her article, "What has Donald Trump said about religion?" (7-18-24) and elaborated by the NYT article "Overlooked Influences on Donald Trump: A Famous Minister and His Church" (9-5-16) -- 5 words
2. "During his childhood, he also went to the First Presbyterian Church in Brooklyn and donated to it in 2012." -- This church affiliation is completely missing from the article. It is supported by the Kelsey Dallas piece and this article in The Atlantic: Green, Emma (July 24, 2016). "Donald Trump Grew Up at a Church That's Now Full of Immigrants" -- 19 words
3. Added that his new identification as a non-denominational Christian is "an unusual shift in religious affiliation for a sitting president." Source: Admin, C. (October 27, 2020). "Trump Becomes the First President Since Eisenhower to Change Faiths in Office". Christianity Today. More can be said about this salient shift, of course, but here adding only -- 10 words
4. "Trump appeals to Christian nationalists, according to a 2022 study" -- This key point is missing from the article. There are numerous sources that discuss his relationship to Christian nationalism, please Google News to confirm. Here I suggest an academic paper by leading scholars: Perry, Samuel L.; Whitehead, Andrew L.; Grubbs, Joshua B. (June 2022). "The Devil That You Know: Christian Nationalism and Intent to Change One's Voting Behavior For or Against Trump in 2020". Politics and Religion. 15 (2): 229–246. doi:10.1017/S175504832100002X. p.243 -- 10 words
5. "and in March 2024 he began to sell copies of a Christian Bible." -- Not elsewhere in the article. Source: Willingham, A. J. (March 28, 2024). "Why some Christians are angry about Trump's 'God Bless the USA' Bible". CNN. -- 13 words

Religion is a major issue in Trump's personal life, especially because the personal is political for his relationship with Christian constituencies. In the current version, the word "Christian" only appears once in the article. I believe these 5 changes are written from a Neutral point of view, clearly Verified, and involve due Weight to a significant aspect of the subject's life. @Space4Time3Continuum2x, thanks in advance for comments. ProfGray (talk) 20:29, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

There is an argument for 2, 4, and 5 to be added. 1 and 3 are relatively trivial IMO. Cessaune [talk] 20:38, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

I believe 1 is not trivial. The "power of positive thinking" is at the heart of Trump's philosophy. I believe it used to be in the article, but has been edited out at some point.--Jack Upland (talk) 00:53, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

1, 2, 3 are silly trivia. Ambivalent on the rest. Zaathras (talk) 01:15, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

4 seems more relevant. DN (talk) 01:46, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

There is too much religion material in the article. There should be something about his pandering to fundamentalist Christians , his strange messages to the Jews, and his attempts to monetize and brand himself with the Bible. Well, actually we do have the photo-op. SPECIFICO talk 01:55, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

I believe the Bible is included in an article on Trump products.Jack Upland (talk) 02:56, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

You can now get the “The Day God Intervened” edition (custom embossed to in remembrance of the day that God intervened during President Donald J. Trump`s assassination attempt — English isn't the website's forte) of "the only Bible endorsed by" Trump, using his "name, likeness and image" under a license agreement with one of Trump's organizations, CIC Ventures LLC; $59.99, or $1,000 with President Donald J. Trump's Hand-Signed Signature. It's not a Trump-branded product, so it's mentioned in the last paragraph of The Trump Organization#Other ventures and investments. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 13:42, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

@SPECIFICO: Hi there. Based on your suggestion more content about Christians, messages to Jews, etc., it looks like a typo and that you meant to write, "There is not too much religion..." -- is that right? ProfGray (talk) 19:11, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

I meant there's too much insignificant content about church etc and not enough about his use of religion in efforts to pander to various groups. SPECIFICO talk 02:37, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

@Space4Time3Continuum2x Thank you for the link to the godblesstheusabible website ... my brain just exploded.  • Bobsd •  (talk) 01:57, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

This edit moved Trump’s Sunday school confirmation from Religion to Early Life, and this edit removed Peale. Religion is a major issue in Trump's personal life — he was and is unable to name a favorite or cite a single verse or passage from the Bible. I just moved Sunday school back into the section. I assume Sunday school was mentioned only because of contradictory Trump claims about his religion/religiosity. I can't think of any other bio mentioning it as part of early life and education, not even Mike Pence's. Was tempted to remove it but didn't because of this discussion.

• this edit in May removed Peale. The Trumps started attending Marble Collegiate Church because of Peale's fame and feel-good-about-being-rich sermons. Seems trivial to me.
• Donation to Brooklyn church: It was apparently only reported by one source, The Atlantic, at the time which also reported that As far as Patrick O’Connor, the pastor, knows, the Republican presidential nominee has never tried to visit the church where he grew up—or, at least, not in several decades. Who knows why he sent a check in 2012, and was it a personal check or a Trump Foundation check?
• Christian nationalism. There's one sentence in Donald Trump 2024 presidential campaign#Campaign events: The Associated Press noted that "Trump's rallies take on the symbols, rhetoric and agenda of Christian nationalism." It's part of his rhetoric to please a subset of his supporters, so it would belong in Donald Trump#2024 presidential campaign.
• "an unusual shift in religious affiliation for a sitting president" — trivial statistic. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 14:46, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

It seems like Peale was an important influence on the Donald’s life, so I would strongly urge the reinstatement of that text. Jack Upland (talk) 17:54, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Hi. @Space4Time3Continuum2x, Thanks for your collaborative comments and for explaining your take to each of these points, which I appreciate, plus you looked up past edits. You also moved the Sunday school thing, even though you feel that it's unimportant. Your point (higher up) about the bible is clear and well-explained, so I get that (#5). If the donation is only one RS, then I can see leaving out of this article, though it may belong in a sub-article (#2).

• On Christian nationalism (#4), or Christian right / conservatism -- you suggest a different section, that's very helpful. There are numerous RS sources on his relationship to Christian movements, e.g., Trumpism article long section. It is deeper and earlier than the current campaign, so it might go under earlier under political career. But I'm puzzled because this article doesn't mention the political movement-building he has done, e.g., MAGA, Trumpism. and Christian conservatism. What's your sense of that? (FWIW, my #3 is related to all this, but less important than showing readers his evangelical coalition-building.)
• On Norman Vincent Peale -- Ok, it might sound trivial at first glance. But there are many sources that report, analyze, and opine about the relevance of Peale to Trump. Is it helpful if I give some links, or would that be off-putting here? CNBC 2020,NYT 2016, a Christian POV, biographer in Politico, WaPo 2016, evangelical POV, linking to his COVID approach (one of several), First Things conservative POV, and more.

Thanks for your consideration. ProfGray (talk) 19:52, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

A consensus appears to be forming for adding Trump's support of Christian nationality somewhere in the article. Peale influence: in an interview [Trump] described Dr. Peale as “a great preacher and a great public speaker” but said nothing about any religious beliefs he had imparted. (New York Times) Trump, in a telephone interview, ... said he was a young man when he first heard Norman Vincent Peale preach. “He would give the best sermons of anyone; he was an amazing public speaker,” Trump said. “He could speak for 90 minutes and people were upset when it was over.” Trump said he was drawn to stories the minister told in the pulpit about successful business executives “overcoming difficulties.” “I found that very interesting,” the billionaire said, adding that he and Peale became friends. “He thought I was his greatest student of all time.” (Washington Post) Sounds more transactional than faith-based. Also, are there any witnesses for Trump attending church every Sunday for 50 years? He has been known to lie ... Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 17:34, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

Peale was a far-right Christian nationalist charlatan and a bigot whose model is reflected in much of Trump's present-day rhetoric. SPECIFICO talk 02:22, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

I think his relationship with Peale was transactional, but that's no reason not to include it!Jack Upland (talk) 02:56, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

No, Peale was a hero and role model - like Roy Cohn, Putin, and Lechter. These icons impregnated the imagination of what would become today's Trump-2024. SPECIFICO talk 12:01, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Based on responses, I will aim to write something brief in the article about Trump's work with Christian conservatives and (arguable) support for Christian nationalism. Might be next week. It's fine, of course, if somebody else writes this into the article, please let me know via ping.

On Peale, it seems that he deserves at least limited mention as an inspiration (or other term) for Trump. I think this is easiest to put into Religion section, since Trump encountered hiim through church, but other suggested placements are welcome. Thanks for all your responses and finding further sources. ProfGray (talk) 02:17, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Hi @Space4Time3Continuum2x, in my comment above (Oct 9), I expressed what I took to be a suitable handling for Peale. While some users assumed Peale was trivial, I cited 8 different sources, including articles devoted to Peale's influence on Trump. Your comment mentioned NYT and WaPo. Specifico and Jack Upland affirmed the relevance of Peale. Please clarify your concerns, e.g., is Peale's influence not discussed by credible sources, should Peale's influenced be mentioned elsewhere in the article? Something else? Thanks. ProfGray (talk) 14:40, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

There's no consensus to add Peale. Only eight people participated in this discussion. Four opposed mentioning Peale, and one acquiesced to the opposed faction. Peale's page mentions Donald Trump, and Fred Trump's page mentions Peale's influence on Fred. Fred Trump was raised Lutheran, his children were raised in his wife's Presbyterian beliefs, became a member of the Norman Vincent Peale church of "positive thinking". Trump, who went back to living with his parents after he finished college, went along but seems to have come away with "assume the worst". Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 18:27, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Factoid #2 needs to be removed and I'll acquiesce to those above who say that #1 and #3 should go. In general, it's more important how Trump is perceived by the religious right than trivialities about the few times he actually attended church. _pbp 20:45, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Based on discussion above, I'm adding a Christian nationalism sentence to a subsection on Trump's campaign rhetoric: "Without being conventionally religious, Trump used Christian nationalist rhetoric that portrayed Christians under siege in America and that promised its renewal as a Christian nation." This is based on the most cited authors on Christian nationalism in contemporary American politics (this article has been cited 500+ times): Whitehead, Andrew L., Samuel L. Perry, and Joseph O. Baker. "Make America Christian again: Christian nationalism and voting for Donald Trump in the 2016 presidential election." Sociology of religion 79, no. 2 (2018): 147-171. esp pages 150-153. It'd be good to have at least one sentence on his coalition building with evangelical / conservative Christians. ProfGray (talk) 17:45, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

In line with the above discussion, I also added a sentence on Norman Vincent Peale in the "Religion" subsection. There are various sources, noted above, so I chose the liberal NY Times and the conservative First Things, which both give a pretty reasonable account of how Trump was influenced by Peale. ProfGray (talk) 18:12, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

I reverted the addition of Peale since there is no consensus for it, and I replaced the material you added with the material we discussed here. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 12:56, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Sources

reverted edit

@Zaathras What I wrote is not a mandyism, as it is the context of what he said, as stated by the source. I will note, as discussed on that essays' talk page, that it is an often misused essay. My edit is not even the type of edit that the essay is about, as it is not a denial of an allegation. I also cite WP:NOTMANDY. Anotherperson123 (talk) 00:42, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes, it was. Thus far your entire history of editing attempts here have been to water down verbiage in the article that you find disagreeable. Not a good start. Zaathras (talk) 22:04, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

What is your argument for why it is a mandyism, and also for why the essay should apply in this case? Anotherperson123 (talk) 01:04, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

WP:MANDY applies. After Heather Heyer was killed on August 12, Trump tweeted a four-minute statement blaming the "display of hatred, bigotry, and violence on many sides". After two days of backlash he he called mmembers of the KKK, neo-Nazis and white supremacists "criminals and thugs" on August 14. On August 15, he reverted to blaming both sides. Later he and his supporters claimed that "his fine people on both sides" didn't mean the white supremacists but the (invisible) people peacefully protesting the removal of Lee's statue. Quoting Mandy: Well, he would, wouldn't he? MOS:EDITORIAL also applies. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 16:46, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

The article talks about the comments at the unite the right rally. We should mention all the essential details about what he said. Even if it was about some other time he said something, the biography of living persons policy says that articles must state when an allegation is denied. As WP:NOTMANDY notes

'The validity or invalidity of MANDY has been debated extensively by Wikipedia editors. Among their concerns is that MANDY contradicts part of our BLP policy which currently states that when allegations are sourced well enough to be included in a BLP article, then "If the subject has denied such allegations, their denial(s) should be reported too."' Anotherperson123 (talk) 00:21, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

What allegation? Description is not allegation. SPECIFICO talk 01:47, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

If it isn't an allegation, WP:MANDY does not apply. If it is an allegation, then WP:NOTMANDY applies. Anotherperson123 (talk) 19:53, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Please just answer my question so your concern can be resolved directly and constructively. SPECIFICO talk 03:40, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

The allegation that he was referring to white supremacists/supported white supremacists with this statement. This claim is even apparently subject to a fact check ([2]). Anotherperson123 (talk) 16:35, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

So should we say then "but his characterization was wrong as it was conceived of, led by and attended by white supremacists"? Slatersteven (talk) 16:41, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

If that's what the sources say, and no sources are found that say something else, that would probably be good, except I would replace "it" with "the rally". Anotherperson123 (talk) 19:59, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

If no one objects, I will put the proposed change into the article. Anotherperson123 (talk) 00:29, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

@Zaathras Please read the diff thoroughly before reverting. My edit addressed the concerns about the previous edit while keeping the talk page consensus. See this talk page section for details. Anotherperson123 (talk) 22:48, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

I think we do need to include the context that Trump explicitly denounced white supremacists in the same statement he said 'very fine people'. The Unite the Right page deals with this better. We are misleading by omission as things stand. MANDY doesn't seem to apply. Riposte97 (talk) 00:19, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

It's not that simple. DN (talk) 00:51, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

How not? Riposte97 (talk) 01:06, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

For one, the phrasing "although he said he was referring to people who were not white supremacists when talking about "fine people on both sides" uses "although". See MOS:OFCOURSE...There are other factors in regard to how Trump's statements on the matter are already dealt with in the article, so IMO, it doesn't seem so cut and dried. Cheers. DN (talk) 01:10, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

This is just a criticism of a particular wording, not of the content itself. Anotherperson123 (talk) 02:10, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Exactly. We could easily put the fact in a new sentence. "In the same speech, Trump disavowed…" Riposte97 (talk) 02:19, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

You are making the assumption that's all it is. I would advise against further attempts to keep adding it in without EXPLICIT consensus...

Let's look at it.

• Trump's comments on the 2017 Unite the Right rally, condemning "this egregious display of hatred, bigotry and violence on many sides" and stating that there were "very fine people on both sides", were widely criticized as implying a moral equivalence between the white supremacist demonstrators and the counter-protestors.

There is a question of WEIGHT to adding something along the lines of "he was referring to people who were not white supremacists"...because AFAICT, according to sources, there did not seem to be many people there that were not considered white supremacists. It may have been Trump's view that there were, and that makes it more complex.

If you weren't part of that original discussion I highly suggest you check the ARCHIVE first. How it is currently explained in the article may have been the best way forward after much discussion and consideration over prominence in sources. There may even have been a consensus. Did you check the FAQ?

I would also keep in mind that it was reverted more than once by two other (highly experienced IMO) editors [3] [4] despite a WP:CTOP, WP:ARB enforced 24hr BRD boundary, instead of just getting an admin involved. So, for the sake of clarity, I suggest you WP:AGF and DO NOT reinsert it a third time without EXPLICT consensus, because this article gets harder to manage the closer to the election we get. Patience is a necessity here. Cheers. DN (talk) 03:08, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

The edit summary of the first revert read: "Results in a 95-word sentence. Please try again", so I edited again, splitting it into separate sentences. That was reverted by Zaathras who wrote in the edit summary "same word salas as reverted minutes ago", despite it addressing the concerns of the user who reverted it. Zaathras has not yet clarified the meaning of this edit summary.

It seems the way to move forward is this: 1. mention that Trump was not referring to white supremacists/condemned white supremacists in the same sentence 2. mention that there probably weren't many people at the protest who were not white supremacists. What remains is how exactly to word this. Anotherperson123 (talk) 23:48, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Both appear to be your personal opinion, and not supported by sources, which brings us back to whitewashing. You aren't the first account to try this, and likely will not be the last account. Zaathras (talk) 01:02, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Not helpful, focus on content not editors. PackMecEng (talk) 01:24, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Both are supported by sources and are part of the compromise of this talk page section. Anotherperson123 (talk) 01:46, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

What you consider to be a compromise, I do not agree with. Again, just your opinion. Not factual. Zaathras (talk) 23:50, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

The first thing is definitely supported by sources and is even subject to a fact check, as stated above. Anotherperson123 (talk) 01:08, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

It has been a week and still nobody has brought any argument against this. Anotherperson123 (talk) 17:50, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

I see lots of arguments against it aLready made, we do not have to repeat them. Slatersteven (talk) 17:54, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

These "lots of arguments" consist of variations of "you're wrong", arguments stemming from a misunderstanding of what is proposed, and arguments against particular wordings. Anotherperson123 (talk) 18:26, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

WP:CON. Unless I overlooked or misunderstood someone, there are two editors supporting your POV and seven opposing it after two weeks since you opened this thread. Time to step away from this discussion? Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 20:13, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

WP:NOTDEMOCRACY There has been little discussion other than editors saying "I disagree" and then never explaining why. Anotherperson123 (talk) 02:53, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Nothing more is really needed other than disagreement. You're making repeated sub-par edits to a variety of political articles, from this to others. most of which appear to have been reverted. Perhaps it is time to consider another topic area. Zaathras (talk) 03:51, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

In practice, NOTDEMOCRACY basically just means you can't just vote yea or nay; you have to make an argument with it; pretty much any argument will suffice. In practice, it doesn't mean you can just say your arguments are stronger and expect others to submit; many have tried and failed, including me. Nor can you force others to improve their games, which you appear to be trying to do.

When (1) there is an uninvolved closer, (2) the minority has stronger policy-based arguments, (3) the closer knows the policy, and (4) the closer is prepared to risk having to defend their decision in a closure review (that's a lot of "ifs"), they will close in favor of the minority. Otherwise, we do our best to sway other editors to our viewpoint, and, if we fail in that after some reasonable amount of time (multiple editors are saying we're there now), we take a metaphorical pill and move on. I've done that, say, a thousand times and I can attest that it gets much easier with practice. I can't even remember the last time I lost. My motto: In the end, it's only Wikipedia.

More generally, when you have multiple editors with 30+ times your experience telling you you're wrong, odds are they're right; go along now, understand later. I think that's the first thing I would tell any relatively new editor. For a rough idea of an editor's experience, go to their contribs page, scroll to the bottom, and click "Edit count". That gives you a lot more information than edit count, so the link is misleading. ―Mandruss ☎ 05:16, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

I've previously said that I thought Anotherperson123's original reverted edit was a good edit, and I think I have a decent amount of experience on Wikipedia, if that matters as you say. Regards, Bob K31416 (talk) 12:48, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

I was referring to process, not content. The user is wrong as to process. ―Mandruss ☎ 23:17, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

In any case, you might tone it down and not comment on the editor personally. Thanks.

Getting back to the discussion, what do you think is the best objection to the edit? Bob K31416 (talk) 05:49, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

No, my tone was about right, though in hindsight some of my little essay probably would've been better placed at their UTP. Getting back to the discussion, I have no opinion as to this content. First clue: I haven't commented about content. ―Mandruss ☎ 16:55, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Nearly every thread of this talk page topic has ended with someone appearing to concede that this is a good edit, but not posting anything after that. Anotherperson123 (talk) 20:58, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm relying mostly on this comment. Space4T doesn't miss much in my experience. ―Mandruss ☎ 21:44, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

For reference, here's the revert in question [5].
Here's an article that has the transcript of the press conference that contains Trump's original "both sides" comment [6]. Trump clarified in that same press conference what he meant, "And you had people -- and I’m not talking about the neo-Nazis and the white nationalists -- because they should be condemned totally. But you had many people in that group other than neo-Nazis and white nationalists." Bob K31416 (talk) 09:00, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

There was more than one statement — see Unite_the_Right_rally#President_Trump's_response, including the infrastructure press conference at Trump Tower with Chao and Mnuchin smiling awkwardly in the background. Trump backtracked and then backtracked from the backtrack and then backtracked from the backtrack of the backtrack. We've been over this several times in the past seven years. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 16:00, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Here's the third paragraph of the lead of that Wikipedia article you referred to [7].

"US President Donald Trump's remarks about the rally generated negative responses. In his initial statement following the rally, Trump condemned the "display of hatred, bigotry, and violence on many sides."[33] This first statement and his subsequent defenses of it, in which he also referred to "very fine people on both sides", were criticized as implying a moral equivalence between the white supremacist protesters and the counter-protesters.[7][34][35][36][37] Trump later stated (in the same statement) that "I'm not talking about the neo-Nazis and the white nationalists, because they should be condemned totally–but you had many people in that group other than neo-Nazis and white nationalists".[38][39]"

For comparison, here's the corresponding part in our article, including the reverted part.

"Trump's comments on the 2017 Unite the Right rally, condemning 'this egregious display of hatred, bigotry and violence on many sides' and stating that there were 'very fine people on both sides', were widely criticized as implying a moral equivalence between the white supremacist demonstrators and the counter-protesters, although he said he was referring to people who were not white supremacists when talking about 'fine people on both sides'".

It looks like a good edit. Bob K31416 (talk) 18:01, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

It also twice as long. Slatersteven (talk) 18:16, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Sometimes paragraphs need to be longer than they are to include the essential information. If a shorter version can be found that includes the essential information, good. If not, then we need the extra length. Anotherperson123 (talk) 18:36, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

And sometimes it adds nothing, then the place for this is the article about the rally, not him. Slatersteven (talk) 18:39, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

If we're going to include information about the rally, we shouldn't selectively exclude essential details. Anotherperson123 (talk) 18:50, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

We include the claim he did not mean white supremacists. Slatersteven (talk) 18:56, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

I hadn't looked at the Unite the Right article in a while. The last sentence in the lead paragraph about Trump's statements is cherry-picked whitewashing.

Lead paragraph in 2021

U.S. President Donald Trump's remarks on Charlottesville generated negative responses. In his initial statement following the rally, Trump "condemned hatred, bigotry, and violence on many sides". While Trump condemned both neo-Nazis and white nationalists,[31] his first statement and subsequent defenses of it, in which he also referred to "very fine people on both sides", were seen by critics as implying moral equivalence between the white supremacist marchers and those who protested against them. Critics interpreted his remarks as sympathetic to white supremacists,[8] while supporters characterized this interpretation as a hoax,[32] because Trump's "fine people" statement explicitly denounced white nationalists.[33][34]

Also not great but at least not WP:MANDY in Wikivoice with the intro "Trump later stated (in the same statement) that". That's a problem that needs to be taken care of in that article, and it's not a mistake we should be repeating in this one. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 18:51, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

If you are on a side that is supported by neo-Nazis and you don't go out of your way to beat the living tar out of them and run them off... then you are not a very fine person. You are, in fact, a neo-Nazi.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 00:11, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

WP:NOTFORUM Anotherperson123 (talk) 00:55, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

It's a lot worse than WP:NOTFORUM, it's advocating violence. Bob K31416 (talk) 01:55, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

There is a philosophical debate around such a thing. Zaathras (talk) 12:43, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

Advocating violence is expressly prohibited by the Wikimedia Code of Conduct. Also, Wikipedia is still not a forum. Anotherperson123 (talk) 02:02, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Its just an academic discussion or point on the ethics of opposing fascism and hatred ,and the lengths one can or should go. Not everyone is capable of such a discourse though, so, all good. Zaathras (talk) 03:02, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

As much as I despise Nazis and Nazi apologists, beating the living tar out of people is something Nazis are also well known for, among other things. DN (talk) 08:40, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

WP:NOPERSONALATTACKS, and Wikipedia is still not a forum. Anotherperson123 (talk) 02:24, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

It might be construed as a general comment, they did not specify a name. Off-topic either way, but I've said my piece. DN (talk) 03:52, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

There were no personal attacks made, so your link is irrelevant. Zaathras (talk) 04:53, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Y'all are REALLY overreacting to a simple colorful idiom. By tolerating the presence of the neo-Nazis, the other protesters on that side reveal themselves to not be "very fine people". Very fine people do not allow themselves to be associated with neo-Nazis.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 11:34, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

There were no "other protesters on that side" at the Unite the Right Rally. That was just Trump's spin. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 14:04, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Fast forward to a future where there is a Wikipedia article [[Khajidha]] about a Wikipedia editor who is running in a close race for U. S. president. Editors who are anti-Khajidha have taken control of the article and it is filled with one-sided information. For example there is, "Khajidha has been criticized for advocating violence with the comment 'beat the living tar out of them and run them off'". An editor has tried to include Khajidha's explanation by adding, "although Khajidha said it was just 'a simple colorful idiom '", but couldn't get consensus for the edit. Bob K31416 (talk) 07:48, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Would the "one-sided information" in this hypothetical article include (as this article on Trump actually does) the fact that said comment was made in reference to neo-Nazis? If so, I think I'd be fine with it.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 10:05, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

I think what's happening here can be summed up as another case where only one-sided information is allowed in the article. Bob K31416 (talk) 08:11, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

We do mention it. Slatersteven (talk) 10:23, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

@Anotherperson123: It appears you're not going to get a consensus for your proposed changes. GoodDay (talk) 16:39, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

There remains no consensus for this suggestion, and no one has to respond if they have already objected. Silence is not acquiescence. So if it is made, it will be reverted. THis is my last word on this, any further comments will be made in any reversion edit summery. Slatersteven (talk) 18:29, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

How do you propose to deal with the fact that the latest sources acknowledge Trump explicitly wasn't talking about neo-Nazis and white supremacists? We need to address that. Omitting it is fundamentally POV. Also, saying 'there were no non-white-supremacists at the rally' as you have done above is OR. Riposte97 (talk) 22:00, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

The two sides were those who wanted to keep the statue of Robert E. Lee (which included the mayor of Charlottesville) and those who were against it. As I recall, Trump said something like, if you get rid of that statue then what about the monuments for slave owners George Washington and Thomas Jefferson. Bob K31416 (talk) 22:24, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Requesting uninvolved close because an editor objected to a previous attempt to close. The editor who started this discussion didn't say which edits/reverts are being challenged, so here's the recap. Longstanding text:

Trump's comments on the 2017 Unite the Right rally, condemning "this egregious display of hatred, bigotry and violence on many sides" and stating that there were "very fine people on both sides", were widely criticized as implying a moral equivalence between the white supremacist demonstrators and the counter-protesters.

Two edits on October 9, edit 1 and edit 2, added this clause:

although he said he was referring to people who were not white supremacists when talking about "fine people on both sides".

without adding any new sources and were reverted.

My opinion: the added clause is editorializing (MOS:OP-ED) and should be excluded per WP:BLPPUBLIC as there are "a multitude of reliable published sources, and BLPs should simply document what these sources say". Our page cites three sources, dated August 12 and August 15, 2017, and May 8, 2020, confirming our text. Trump hasn’t denied that he said what was reported. He kept making contradictory remarks which is mentioned in the main article but not on this page. The three editors supporting the additional text have cited one latest source[] among the three of them, the Snopes fact-check of this claim: On Aug. 15, 2017, then-President Donald Trump called neo-Nazis and white supremacists who attended the Unite the Right rally in Charlottesville, Virginia, "very fine people." That’s not a claim our text makes. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 11:49, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Sources

I don't think it should be closed because there is an active discussion, including the comment opposing the edit, which was just made by Space4Time3Continuum2x who wants to close. Thanks. Bob K31416 (talk) 12:39, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

This discussion has been open for three weeks. It had been dormant for a week when Anotherperson123 reopened it by saying basically "I don't accept any of the arguments opposing my opinion", entering WP:DEADHORSE territory, in my opinion. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 15:07, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

That was meant to be an invitation for others to bring objections so that their concerns can be taken into account to adjust the edit. It probably should have been worded differently. I am still open to changing the wording if anyone wants to help adjust it. There is probably some way to include this without wording issues. Anotherperson123 (talk) 03:51, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Consensus

A claim has been made that nearly everyone has agreed to this edit, I am unsure this is true so lets see? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Slatersteven (talk • contribs) 12:08, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

It's not, and I don't think that was the claim. I counted, and I didn't even need to take off my socks to do it. Sorry, the proposer and the two supporting editors each saying multiple times that it's a good edit doesn't increase the "support" count. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 12:40, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

That is how I read "Nearly every thread of this talk page topic has ended with someone appearing to concede that this is a good edit,", not just this thread, every thread. Thuys I thought "lets clear that claim up". Yes, I agree, the consensus is clear, they disagree. Slatersteven (talk) 12:50, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

I was referring to the ambiguousness of the last comments of most of the threads, which I had interpreted as conditionally affirmative, such as this comment. Given Slatersteven's apparent views, it doesn't seem that is the case. Anotherperson123 (talk) 20:10, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

I have tried counting multiple times and cannot duplicate your number. I see that there are 4 people against and 3 for, far from an overwhelming majority. Anotherperson123 (talk) 20:13, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Even if you're right, which remains to be seen, that merely changes it from "consensus to omit" to "no consensus". The default in case of "no consensus" is to omit, so your point is pointless. At some point we say enough time has been spent trying to reach a consensus, and efforts to keep discussion going until the desired result has been achieved become disruptive to the overall operation of this page. This is not the only important issue under consideration. (Reminder: This is from an editor who has no dog in this content fight.) ―Mandruss ☎ 00:56, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

I counted on November 1. This section was added two days later, and when I added the above edit only SlaterSteven had voted in the "Questions" section. Seems I misinterpreted GoodDay's contribution, and one contributor has since been T-banned. Current count 6 no, 4 yes. And what Mandruss said. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 14:51, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

WP:NOTAFORUM Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 14:30, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Get ready to update this to "President Trump is the 45th and 47th President of the United States with the largest Electoral College victory in the entire history of the United States while also electing more Supreme Court Justices than any other President in US history." Enjoy champ. 104.230.247.132 (talk) 12:52, 3 November 2024 (UTC) What has this to do with the question? Slatersteven (talk) 12:56, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

I need a refresher. What again, is the disputed edit? GoodDay (talk) 19:25, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

See this recap. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 20:16, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

What I proposed is some version of including that Donald Trump condemned white supremacists/said he was not referring to white supremacists in the same sentence as the "fine people on both sides" claim, combining this with whatever other clarification is necessary to ensure NPOV. The editors for cite WP:BLP, a Snopes fact check, and the transcript. It seems that the editors against are arguing against individual iterations of this, although I'm not certain. They cite MOS:EDITORIALISE. Anotherperson123 (talk) 20:55, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

This is a tough one, if the former US president did explain himself, later. GoodDay (talk) 21:04, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

This seems to be a source of confusion for many of the editors. It wasn't on some other day or even later in the speech. It was in the same sentence, juxtaposed with the "fine people on both sides" phrase. Anotherperson123 (talk) 02:46, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

For reference, in the following continuous part of the transcript of the press conference [8], I underlined and bolded two parts that had the fine people remark and clarifications in the same press conference.

Trump: "Excuse me, excuse me. They didn’t put themselves -- and you had some very bad people in that group, but you also had people that were very fine people, on both sides. You had people in that group. Excuse me, excuse me. I saw the same pictures as you did. You had people in that group that were there to protest the taking down of, to them, a very, very important statue and the renaming of a park from Robert E. Lee to another name."

Reporter: "George Washington and Robert E. Lee are not the same."

Trump: "George Washington was a slave owner. Was George Washington a slave owner? So will George Washington now lose his status? Are we going to take down -- excuse me, are we going to take down statues to George Washington? How about Thomas Jefferson? What do you think of Thomas Jefferson? You like him?"

Reporter: "I do love Thomas Jefferson."

Trump: "Okay, good. Are we going to take down the statue? Because he was a major slave owner. Now, are we going to take down his statue? "So you know what, it’s fine. You’re changing history. You’re changing culture. And you had people -- and I’m not talking about the neo-Nazis and the white nationalists -- because they should be condemned totally. But you had many people in that group other than neo-Nazis and white nationalists. Okay? And the press has treated them absolutely unfairly.

Regards, Bob K31416 (talk) 03:30, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

The problem I see is that no-one; neither Trump nor anyone else, has presented any actual evidence of the otherwise imaginary 'very fine people' on the side that had been wholly organized and led by overt and inarguable white supremists. Without such evidence his 'clarification' is just on-the-fly CYA to cover up his pandering. Largely Legible Layman (talk) 04:19, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

I've changed to support. But, I'm just one individual. GoodDay (talk) 04:24, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

We can mention that there were probably no people who were not white supremacists too. I think this would help eliminate the concerns of those who oppose the edit on those grounds. Anotherperson123 (talk) 16:58, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Again, they were in the same group as the White Supremacists and did not disavow their association. That makes them White Supremacists as well. And therefore NOT very fine people. In any case, if you have to specify that "of course I didn't mean the White Supremacists", then you are either too stupid to be allowed in public, or you are a White Supremacist who is trying to hide your views after being called out. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 13:29, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

And Trump's attempted equation of a statue to Lee (a traitor) to statues of Washington and Jefferson (founding fathers) is laughable. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 13:32, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

WP:NOTFORUM Anotherperson123 (talk) 16:59, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Association fallacy Anotherperson123 (talk) 17:51, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

You seem to get awfully upset by people calling out neo-Nazis.....--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 20:50, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

For the record: you're citing the third statement on August 15. Trump's tweet at 1:19 p.m., August 12:

We ALL must be united & condemn all that hate stands for. There is no place for this kind of violence in America. Lets come together as one!

Trump's first statement two hours later (Heather Heyer had been killed at 1:45 p.m):

"We condemn in the strongest possible terms this egregious display of hatred, bigotry and violence on many sides.” He then added for emphasis: “On many sides".

Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 15:20, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Please note that the fine people quote in our article is from the Aug 15 press conference and its transcript that I gave. Bob K31416 (talk) 16:13, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Let me also say that the "very fine people" remark out of the context that it wasn't referring to Neo-Nazis, etc, is misinformation. I think an edit along the lines of the proposed edit helps address that problem. Bob K31416 (talk) 17:06, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

OK, lets put it another way, while this discussion is ongoing it is not going to get added per policy. Slatersteven (talk) 17:21, 4 November 2024 (UTC) Can we stop wp:soapboxing. Slatersteven (talk) 20:55, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Question

Do you support this change, just say yes or no, we can see all of the arguments above? Slatersteven (talk) 12:07, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Real quick, there were a bunch of changes back and forth. So which change? PackMecEng (talk) 19:25, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

@PackMecEng: [9] ―Mandruss ☎ 20:29, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

I don't know about any other related threads, but participants in this one should be notified. Can't assume people are still paying attention. @Anotherperson123, Zaathras, Riposte9, Darknipples, PackMecEng, Bob K31416, Khajidha, and GoodDay: ―Mandruss ☎ 19:20, 3 November 2024 (UTC) @Riposte97: Fix typo. ―Mandruss ☎ 19:22, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

@SPECIFICO: Notifying. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 10:30, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Indefinitely TBANned from all things Donald Trump. ―Mandruss ☎ 10:46, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

• No Slatersteven (talk) 12:50, 3 November 2024 (UTC)
• No Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 14:54, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

  @Space4Time3Continuum2x we all would agree consensus is not merely about vote count, but if this is about what I think, the change presented issues to which I was also opposed. DN (talk) 20:56, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

• Yes. Riposte97 (talk) 20:09, 3 November 2024 (UTC)
• Neutral GoodDay (talk) 21:01, 3 November 2024 (UTC)
• No Largely Legible Layman (talk)
• No Zaathras (talk) 03:55, 4 November 2024 (UTC)
• Yes GoodDay (talk) 04:23, 4 November 2024 (UTC)
• No DN (talk) 06:31, 4 November 2024 (UTC)
• Comment. Ok, let's see if we can expedite this. Three of the participants have yet to vote here:
  • Anotherperson123: I think it's safe to assume they are not going to suddenly switch to "No", so let's give them a "Yes".
  • Bob K31416: Same.
  • PackMecEng, whose only comment was: "Not helpful, focus on content not editors." Like me, they did not participate in the content discussion, and I hesitated to even notify them. Let's give them a "Neutral".

  Tally: "Yes": Anotherperson123, Bob K31416, Riposte97, GoodDay. "No": Slatersteven, Space4Time3Continuum2x, Largely Legible Layman, Zaathras, Darknipples.

  Result: 5–4 in favor of omit. This poll has served its purpose.

  Conclusion: No consensus to include this disputed content.

  Recommendation: Close and move on. ―Mandruss ☎ 08:15, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

  Gooday voted Neutral then yes, so let's not assume how people will vote. Slatersteven (talk) 11:26, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

I was under the impression this edit meant that GoodDay opposed adding the clause. Oh well, I stand corrected. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 14:08, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

• What, I don't count? --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 13:34, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

• No --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 13:35, 4 November 2024 (UTC)
• No. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 15:03, 4 November 2024 (UTC)
• No - O3000, Ret. (talk) 16:57, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

So (it seems to me) that no, not only did most users not agree with this suggestion, but most users in fact said no. As such consensus is clear and this should be closed. Slatersteven (talk) 15:10, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

A simple counting of yes or no is not determining consensus, which is based on the strength of the arguments. Currently this is an active discussion and shouldn't be closed. Note that in the above discussion I just put in the transcript of the part of the press conference that has the context for the "very fine people" quote in our article and I think this is the first time that it has been on this page. Bob K31416 (talk) 16:43, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

We already know, the issue is (and was, and will be) is that needed when we already said he denied it. We are (yet again) going over the same arguments. And that is why this needs closing, as it is not going anywhere. If you think you have consensus you would not be afraid to have a close. Slatersteven (talk) 16:57, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

A simple counting of yes or no is not determining consensus, which is based on the strength of the arguments. You are correct, and the mechanism for determining that the minority has stronger arguments is called "uninvolved closure". You may request an uninvolved closer at WP:RFCL (you may have difficulty finding a closer willing to take on this one, and your request could easily sit there for months). You either submit that request, or you accept the numbers; you have done neither.

But you can't force people to continue discussion until you're satisfied (common newbie mistake). If others continue commenting, I suppose the disruption is as much their fault as yours. Seems to me most people have had enough. ―Mandruss ☎ 23:39, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Sometimes it takes awhile to correct a mistake on a Wikipedia page and it can be an evolving process. As I recall, around the time I came on Wikipedia 16 years ago, maybe later, I suggested the removal of a phrase that prominently appeared in the lead of a policy page, WP:V, although as I found out I wasn't the first one who wanted it removed. That phrase was "verifiability, not truth". Be well, Bob K31416 (talk) 07:27, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Proposal: Age and health concerns regarding Trump

OK. Here's my proposal: that a section be added that reports the public discussion of concerns about his health, which are now a major part of public discourse. It should obviously not itself speculate on Trump's mental fitness, only report on the comments of WP:RS according to the WP:NPOV guidelines. This would not violate WP:MEDRS, because it would not express an opinion on his mental state, only report on the opinions of others. Opinions, please? — The Anome (talk) 11:32, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

A consensus/new consensus can be established without an RfC. You've already started the discussion on this page. Opening an RfC at this point would be improper, IMO. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 11:35, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

If you insist on going that route, this is the procedure: Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 11:40, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

• Just to start off: support as proposer, per comments above. — The Anome (talk) 11:38, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

  Anome, I suggest you notify the talk page of the article from which your proposed content originated. That page is 6 years old, so the editors there are likely knowledgeable. SPECIFICO talk 20:57, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

  Best 'not' to hand out such a notification at another talkpage, Anome. Less that be construed as canvassing for support. GoodDay (talk) 21:02, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

• No, it is media speculation, not a clinical diagnosis, and this is a BLP. Slatersteven (talk) 11:39, 16 October 2024 (UTC)
• yes it is time, esp after the 39 minute dance this week the topic has received quite a bit of coverage. whether it is a 'diagnosis' or not is not an issue, a encyclopedia is not drawing a medically-based conclusion it is just reflecting the preponderance of the sources. ValarianB (talk) 13:44, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

• No or at best, very limited yes. I know we don't cite other wiki pages. But just for comparison, the Joe Biden main page only gives it about a vague sentence or two, and that's for a figure who's cognitive decline has been much more prominent and widely discussed by RS. Also, that section is titled much more neutrally simply as "Age and health." So overall, this is a "no" unless significantly scaled back. Just10A (talk) 13:50, 16 October 2024 (UTC)
• No It looks like they are not sincere age and health concerns but political attacks with no consensus of medical professionals. In the last stages of an election campaign, I think it's just part of an expected full court press. Bob K31416 (talk) 14:10, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

  That's a straw man. The topic is concerns, which have been found NOTABLE on the abundantly sourced wiki page from which the recent content and deletion originated. If it were a medical diagnosis, the lead of this page would simply state "Donald Trump is the demented former POTUS and the demented candidate for 2024." But it isn't a diagnosis and nobody's suggested it is. There should not be a formal poll of any sort here. It's already under discussion and @GoodDay: has provided no policy or content-based rationale not to include this summary of a relevant article, similar to many others on this page. Lacking any such rationale, the removal appears meddlesome and destructive. SPECIFICO talk 15:11, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

Are you suggesting editors who oppose the addition, are disruptive? GoodDay (talk) 15:20, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

• No - as he hasn't been diagnosed with having any such medical issues. GoodDay (talk) 14:23, 16 October 2024 (UTC)
• No - We are not going to use non-MEDRS soucres to speculated on someone's mental or physical health. We wouldn't do it with Joe or anyone else. It's also laughable un-encyclopedic. Also it should probably be an RFC to overturn two RFCs and a bunch of previous discussions that all found the same thing. PackMecEng (talk) 14:53, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

  Kinda seems like we did do that with Joe [10]. DN (talk) 15:56, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

  Ugh, well we shouldn't. PackMecEng (talk) 16:59, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

  I don't see a way to "unring" that bell. DN (talk) 20:13, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

• Yes See Joe Biden#2024 presidential campaign. "After the debate raised questions about his health and age, Biden faced calls to withdraw from the race, including from fellow Democrats and the editorial boards of several major news outlets". I understand BLP's require extra care, but "concern" doesn't seem to be weasely enough, as long as it's attributed in a verifiable context outside of VOICE. If the same rules that apply to Biden also apply to Trump, "Refuses to release medical records" with "attributed concerns" is where the bar currently sits. See "More than 230 doctors and health care providers, most of whom are backing Vice President Kamala Harris, call on Trump to release medical records" ABC NYT, Independent, CBS. Also see Age and health concerns about Donald Trump Cheers. DN (talk) 15:05, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

  And Biden did step down, is there any indication of similar pressure on Trump from within the GOP? Slatersteven (talk) 15:10, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

  It's not a qualifier as far as I know. Was the "raised questions about Biden's health" only allowed to be added AFTER he stepped down? Cheers. DN (talk) 15:21, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

  Well I recall making the same arguments there as here, and it all changed when it actually had an impact on the election. Slatersteven (talk) 15:23, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

  Let's look at the tape. Looks like concerns about Biden's health were added on the 4th of July "After the debate raised questions about his health, Biden faced calls to withdraw from the race, including from fellow Democrats and the editorial boards of several major news outlets"[11] and Biden didn't resign until July 21st. Did I miss something? DN (talk) 15:44, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

  NO, but I did, as I had opposed that in the past, and did not see the addition. Slatersteven (talk) 15:52, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

  I can see wanting to err on the side of caution, but the cat is out of the bag and fairness is the name of the game, and other such idioms... DN (talk) 16:04, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

  So we could say then "After a series of rallies raised questions about his health, Trump faced calls to withdraw from the race, including from fellow Republicana and the editorial boards of several major news outlets", would this be supported by RS? Slatersteven (talk) 16:10, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

  AFAIK There is no policy stipulating the statements must be similar. Only that it must be based on what the sources say. DN (talk) 20:24, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

  1.) Do not substantively edit your comments after editors have already replied to them without indicating it. That is against guidelines.

  2.) I don't know how you can argue "There is no policy stipulating the statements must be similar" when just above that you argued "Kinda seems like we did do that with Joe" and "fairness is the name of the game."

  I agree that policy doesn't mandate they match, but you gotta pick a side. You can't argue "Policy says they don't need to be similar" and then simultaneously say "They gotta similar or else it's unfair." Just10A (talk) 20:56, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

  @Just10A If I acted improperly I apologize, as it wasn't my intent to mislead anyone, hence the clarification. I wasn't aware adding afaik is considered a substantive change.

  I believe my yes vote implies that I have picked a side. TMK I'm allowed to make observations and express views on the appearance of possible inconsistencies in the application of policy in good faith. Cheers. DN (talk) 22:00, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

  No problem. I was referring to you adding the ABC source in your earlier comment though just to be clear. I agree that adding AFAIK is more minor. Just10A (talk) 22:03, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

  Oh, then I was way off on what I thought you were referring to. I was about to start adding TMK and AFAIK to all of my sentences. I meant to add the ABC source in my original edit, but I goofed. Truly sorry if that screwed something up, I've had similar experiences so I empathize. DN (talk) 22:21, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

  @Just10A I would briefly add that, TMK the application of policy and the substance of the context being proposed do not represent two conflicting interpretations of the same policies AFAIK. DN (talk) 22:08, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

  True, but it also means they are not the same situation, which was my point, that they are not analogous. Slatersteven (talk) 10:42, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

• (edit conflict) I'd like to see someone confirm what sort of secondary coverage is here, but WP:MEDRS is irrelevant here because biographical information is not biomedical information: we should almost never include things like how a disease works or how it is diagnosed (except insofar to mention the subject isn't, when that's the case) on a biographical article in the first place. That is not to say we should not ask for the absolute best quality sources, but MEDRS is an inappropriate guideline here. Also, discussion on this topic will also need to consider how and where primary sources are used on the subarticle. Due weight concerns don't go away simply because the content happens to be on another article, and not mentioning something we have an entire subarticle on even once in the main article is close to essentially forcing the subarticle to be a POV fork, an outcome I'd expect neither those supporting nor opposing inclusion should want. Alpha3031 (t • c) 22:23, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

I also don't see how WP:MEDRS (identifying reliable third-party published secondary sources accurately reflecting current knowledge on biomedical information (information relating to or could reasonably be perceived as relating to human health)) applies. If a majority of reliable sources describes the candidate's speech as increasingly incoherent and his behavior as increasingly bizarre, it's not a medical diagnosis. Consensus 39: This does not prevent inclusion of content about temperamental fitness for office. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 13:33, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

No. This is still a BLP. Riposte97 (talk) 22:56, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

Comment For anyone interested in additional details about "Age and health concerns about Joe Biden" being added to the LEAD of Joe Biden's BLP, they appeared about nine days before he bowed out of the 2024 presidential race. It made it onto the LEAD on July 12, [12]. On the 18th a CFN tag was added [13], then removed [14], then re-added and removed again on the 19th [15], back on the 20th [16], removed same day [17], then again re-added by FMSky on the 20th [18], then removed again same day [19], re-added same day [20], and finally within the next 8-24 hours he dropped out [21]. Cheers. DN (talk) 02:00, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

Let me clarify 2 more things then I'm outta here. First, I goofed again when I pinged FMSky, total brain fart that might be perceived as intentional CANVAS or sabotage, I'm just tired from editing all day and got distracted putting diffs together. It's no excuse it's just being honest, you can check my contribs. I doubt they would agree with my vote anyway. Second, I'm not saying this is a good reason to do the same thing here, I just think it's relevant somehow. Sorry if I screwed up, it wont happen again (here at least). Cheers. DN (talk) 02:45, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

• Include. In the last 5-14 days since Harris released her "excellent health" report, there has been renewed coverage in RS about Trump's refusal to release his medical records[22][23][24] and the recent town hall that was even beyond the usual performance standard.[25] Even after Biden it was mentioned [26][27][28][29] Andre🚐 05:49, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

Sources

• Yes, there is polling and Trump hasn't disclosed his medical records.

JohnAdams1800 (talk) 02:26, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes. People say that it should not be included because there is no MEDRS-level source that lists Trump's health. However, this did not stop concerns about Biden's health being added to the Joe Biden page, nor did it stop the creation of the Age and health concerns about Joe Biden Wikipedia page. There is also an Age and health concerns about Donald Trump page. Wikipedia is governed by the consensus of reliable sources, and multiple reliable sources have brought up this topic to the extent that an entire individual page on the wiki exists to cover it, thus the content is WP:DUE. To not at least mention it on this page would be a violation of WP:NPOV and I don't like it through the introduction of editorial bias by having Wikipedia editors decide that the issue is "not important" enough to mention on this page, despite multiple RS clearly making the case that this issue is worth mentioning. BootsED (talk) 03:58, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

• Regarding the rally in Oaks, PA that's been mentioned in this section and in various news media sources, here's the full video of it from C-SPAN [30]. I think it's been mischaracterized as age and health concerns for Trump. Bob K31416 (talk) 07:28, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
• Yes! Its absurd having a long article Age_and_health_concerns_about_Donald_Trump with 120 references but trying to hide that in the main article. This is really a hot topic in the media (US and abroad) so deleting it here is really ridiculous. Especially with the Joe Biden entry featuring such an paragraph. Andol (talk) 19:03, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

Comment: Amen to this. Biden has never been diagnosed with dementia, so it would be wildly improper to suggest that he does, per WP:MEDRS, but we can and should report the widely WP:RS-reported public political controversy regarding the possibility of dementia, per WP:NPOV, as it is politically significant. Trump should not be treated as a special case who is somehow privileged over others. — The Anome (talk) 06:51, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

• Yes for basically the reason Andol gave. There's a long article on these concerns, so we clearly have ample sourcing for them, so it's weird we're not mentioning them much here. Loki (talk) 01:33, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
• Support. The decline may not have been as obvious as Biden's because it started from a much lower baseline, but it was noticeable and noticed. Just this week, there was the 39-minute musical interlude at the Oaks, PA, town hall; the non-responsive rambling during the Bloomberg interview; on Friday, a 10-year old asked Trump on [Fox&Fiends (at 34:26) who his favorite president was when he was little. Trump said "Reagan", then rambled on about Lincoln, the Civil War, Ukraine, Russia, October 7, buying oil from Iran, etc.; and at yesterday's rally in Latrobe, PA, where he "spewed crude and vulgar remarks" and regaled the crowd with tales of Arnold Palmer being "strong and tough" and "unbelievable" in the shower, adding to the "impression of [Trump] as increasingly unfiltered and undisciplined". Quoting the AP headline: Trump kicks off a Pennsylvania rally by talking about Arnold Palmer’s genitalia. NPR called it "an unusually energetic rally for the former president, who has looked and sounded tired of late while doing multiple events and interviews a day across multiple swing states".Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 15:50, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

Sources

• Oaks Town Hall — (Good-faith refactoring of distracting side issue was reverted. The following posts were in response to this. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 16:06, 17 October 2024 (UTC) )

It wasn't a rally. It was a "town hall" staged by the Trump campaign, with Republican operatives posing as "constituents" and reading off cue cards. One of them, "Angelina who had voted Democrat all my life and was from a Democrat union household" had to correct herself because she forgot to say "union household"; she's Angelina Banks who was the Republican nominee for Township Commissioner and State Representative in Pennsylvania's 154th and lost with 19.3% to Nelson's 80.7%. Mischaracterized? The campaign had prepared 10 Q&As but after five the Q&A turned into a bizarre musical event with Trump giving a minion a playlist and then standing on stage not even dancing. Just standing, occasionally swaying, jerking his arms, finger-pointing at the audience, and making faces/smiling(?). And, in keeping with the musical theme, two days later Fox unearthed the set of Hee Haw for an all-women town hall with an audience of MAGA supporters asking curated puff questions. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 11:15, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

Sources

I think it's been mischaracterized... You personal analysis of reliable sources is of no concern to this page. If the sources cover this as an example of the subject's mental decline, then so shall we. Not necessarily in the proverbial "WikiVoice" but as "sources say." For now. Zaathras (talk) 12:12, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

• No There are no reliable secondary sources reporting that Trump has age-related cognitive decline, just speculation from his opponents. One editor mentioned that we covered this for Biden, but it was in the article about his recent presidential campaign. That's where this informtion belongs. It isn't possible to list every accusation made by his opponents in this article, so there is a high bar for inclusion. TFD (talk) 11:27, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Speculation from his opponents? You mean denial of his supporters? I think it is obvious to everyone except is supporters that he has massive issues. This is not a political campaign. It is a topic reported in international media all over the world, even making headlines. And everyone can see it. The only news outlets that don't report on this are the conservative media in US! Think about that. Greetings from Germany, where Trumps decline seems to be better covered than in (the conservative) parts of the US media. Andol (talk) 19:29, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Is there something askew with these sources? They seem to be speculating at the very least.

NYT: Trump’s Speeches, Increasingly Angry and Rambling, Reignite the Question of Age

Independent: Trump’s rambling and angry speeches raise questions about his age and fitness to serve four years

Independent: Experts say Trump’s speaking style shows ‘potential indications of cognitive decline’

New Republic: Watch: Embarrassing Video Reveals Trump’s Alarming Cognitive Decline

The Atlantic: Trump’s Repetitive Speech Is a Bad Sign

WaPo: What science tells us about Biden, Trump and evaluating an aging brain

LA Times: Trump’s rhetorical walkabouts: A sign of ‘genius’ or cognitive decline?

Cheers. DN (talk) 02:21, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

Reliable sources lose their reliability when they express politically motivated opinion and manipulation during a heated election campaign. Buried in one of those sources is a glimmer of rational journalistic integrity, "...the experts in memory, psychology, and linguistics who spoke to STAT noted that they couldn’t give a diagnosis without conducting an examination...". Thanks. Bob K31416 (talk) 11:17, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

Not according to policy, bias it not a justification for rejecting a source, only lack of factual accuracy. Slatersteven (talk) 11:27, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

Don't fall for the bias claim. It doesn't make you biased if you report on those glaring issues. They are obvious. Rather the opposite is true. It takes willful denial, i.e. bias, to not see it. The whole point here is that Trump as a whole is such an abnormal person that he has shifted the goalposts to such a distance that there is no standard to measure him and thus he can get away with anything. And that is a problem for Wikipedia, because Biden is compared to normal people (making him look old), while Trump is compared to himself. Add the near-total polarization in the US, which has his supporters deny everything, even the possibility that there could be anything. Please step back and look up, how the Rest of the world looks at Trump and this election. It's not how the US see it. Trust me. 80 % of the population is in utter disbelieve how Trump with all of his glaring issues even got there, lest how someone who is right in his mind can even think a second of voting for him. And we do really debate if he has issues? Claiming he hasn't is biased, not the other way round. This is a clear situation where the truth is not halfway in the middle. Look at this. Just imagine Joe Biden or Kamala Harris being on stage bragging about the size of some dudes dick. The outcry would be thermonuclear and it would be broadly covered in his or her article in literally five seconds. Here? Thats Trump, normal day in the office, so what. Irrelevant, he made a thousand similar remarks. And that creates a systematic bias pro Trump, because there is no standard he doesn't fall short of, and therefore nothing is noteworthy, no matter how egregious. Andol (talk) 23:59, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

• No - If it was to be included, it would have to be introduced as mere speculation because of MEDRS, but I do not believe there has been any particulary significant RS reporting of speculation about cognitive decline as there was about Biden nor any substantive reason (like a drop out over it) to include it. Trump's speculated cognitive decline has only been popping in the news for the past couple months because he's now the old guy on the ticket, and Dems naturally want to capitalize on that. Not WP:DUE at this time. R. G. Checkers ^talk 14:51, 18 October 2024 (UTC)
  • @R. G. Checkers: And yet we have all the cites from mainstream media WP:RS cited above. Mysteriously, this sort of reporting is regarded as WP:NPOV when it comes to Biden, yet not for Trump. As Elon Musk would say, "Interesting." Is there any point at which you might regarded the public debate about Trump's mental competence noteworthy enough to mention here, or are you just waiting for the election to be over? — The Anome (talk) 17:48, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

    Yes, and it won’t be because he danced at a rally. It would be if there was sustained coverage over months long periods with concerns of cognitive decline or if he literally had drop out of the race because of it. But do I think that 3 weeks before an election with politics flaring and a sudden emphasis on his alleged mental decline is a good reason for inclusion? I answer no. R. G. Checkers ^talk 19:18, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

    In other words, WP:DUE but not before the election? I didn't know WP had to adhere to DOJ guidelines. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 20:40, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

    Is there some policy I'm not aware of that gives a waiting period, especially if your name isn't Joe Biden? DN (talk) 20:43, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

    That's not exactly what Mr. Checkers said. I agree that we should ensure the content is WP:DUE by waiting to see if it's a blip, or something carried through by the sources for more than a few days. Space4Time3Continuum2x, you are usually a stalwart adherent of both established consensus and conservative application of policy - what gives? Riposte97 (talk) 21:08, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

    Last week happened. (I'm still trying to unimagine the unbelievable Arnold Palmer in the shower — a few extra nipples, a rudimentary third leg, a tattoo of Richard Nixon on his back? Although that one is on Roger Stone, I believe, another Trump friend.) This isn't new. NYT in 2018: "Trump's self-absorption, impulsiveness, lack of empathy, obsessive focus on slights, tenuous grasp of facts and penchant for sometimes far-fetched conspiracy theories have generated endless op-ed columns, magazine articles, books, professional panel discussions and cable television speculation." Now we have a flood of reporting on what was obvious for months for everyone who watched Trump rallys on C-SPAN. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 15:03, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

    Your personal analysis or perceived opinion on what's "obvious" about political candidates is irrelevant to the discussion at issue. You're getting seriously close to WP:NOTFORUM. Quit rambling and stick to neutral discussion about the topic at hand to improve the encyclopedia. Just10A (talk) 16:27, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

    WP:NOPA. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 17:53, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

    Asking you to stop violating policy is not a personal attack. Just10A (talk) 18:26, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

    This has been reported on maybe as far back as 2017.

    2017

    2017

    2017

    2017

    2017

    Jan 2024

    No one seems to be suggesting this goes into the lead sentence, and as far as policy goes, eerily similar material to Age and health concerns about Donald Trump made it into the the Biden article as far back as July 4th, and it's STILL there. DN (talk) 19:12, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

    As is frequently pointed out to new users of this page, the fact that some other page on Wikipedia has a different consensus has no bearing on this one. That is usually understood when we are resisting putting something positive in, but seems all to quickly jettisoned when convenient. Regarding the Oaks Town Hall which precipitated this thread, neutral RS seem to offer an explanation that is inconsistent with the line pushed by more partisan sources that Trump had some kind of mental episode. See for example: https://abcnews.go.com/amp/Politics/trump-town-hall-derailed-after-medical-emergencies-crowd/story?id=114796716. I remain unconvinced that the content should be added. Riposte97 (talk) 20:41, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

    "neutral RS seem to offer an explanation that is inconsistent with the line pushed by more partisan sources"

    These threads get so long it's hard to keep track. Please link or cite examples of partisan and neutral sources to which you're referring if you get the chance, it would be very helpful. Cheers. DN (talk) 20:51, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

    Judging by the headlines, we shouldn't use the 2017 sources per the Goldwater rule (psychiatrists/psychologists diagnosing people they haven't seen as patients). Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 12:45, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

    Also, I may a bit confused as to where this thread begins and ends. I may be unintentionally conflating the Oaks town hall and the Proposal: Age and health concerns...Cheers. DN (talk) 21:38, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

• The 39 minute weird man-dancing (partly to YMCA, a song about gay hookups of all things) may actually be the worst example of his cognitive decline as he was quiet instead of rambling nonsense. Indeed, it could be an example of something not at all recent. It certainly doesn't belong in this article. Perhaps elsewhere. O3000, Ret. (talk) 00:18, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

  Not sure if you've seen the unbiased raw video of the Oaks, PA event. On the webpage of C-SPAN's presentation of the full video [31], to the right there is a list of the points of interest in the video: Gov. Kristi Noem (R-SD) Remarks, Fmr. President Trump Remarks, Affordable Homeownership, Family Request Congressional Hearing, Cost of Living, Immigration, Russia-Ukraine War, Immigration & Deportation, Medical Emergency. Notably missing from C-SPAN's list is "weird man-dancing". Bob K31416 (talk) 11:12, 22 October 2024 (UTC)




  What's your point? The C-SPAN video shows the entire event. The music starts at 45:00 and continues until the end. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 12:19, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

  For context, note that the first medical emergency began at 39:00, 6 minutes before your start time. Viewing the video starting at 39:00 will give a better idea of what's going on. Thanks. Bob K31416 (talk) 23:54, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

  I've seen the video and I don't see your point either. Trump just said that he is ahead in every one of the 50 states in the polls. Every state. His goofy, silent dancing was far more rational. O3000, Ret. (talk) 00:49, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

What particularly irritates me here is the double standard of invoking WP:MEDRS in regard to this. No-one is asking for Wikipedia to state that Trump has dementia, or that he has suffered a medical cognitive decline; the issue here is that his increasingly erratic behavior has become a significant news story, and is being reported in reputable MSM sources such as the NYT and WP, who have bent over backwards to be fair to Trump, wouldn't have dreamed of doing eveen a few months ago. Yet for some reason, we're not allowed to use these WP:RS to report these events and the public concern about them in the MSM. This is a profoundly un-encyclopedic things to do that breaks the fundamental WP:NPOV policy. Rejecting any mention of significant major MSM coverage because you don't like it is just another form of WP:OR, — The Anome (talk) 17:02, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

But that is the consensus on this article. That MEDRS sources are required, even to have the conversation technically. PackMecEng (talk) 17:39, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

If this is absolute, then it could not be in the Biden article. But it is. Therefore there is no way to deny the pro Trump bias. MEDRS cannot only protect Trump, but ignore Biden. To me the deletion sounds politically motivated. And that is a major problem. Andol (talk) 20:42, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

@Andol Look at the top of the page in current consensus #39. Nothing is politically motived. PackMecEng (talk) 22:01, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

I made a WP:BOLD edit to see how this plays out [32]. Maybe there is consensus? DN (talk) 04:43, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm good with it and hope it sticks. PackMecEng (talk) 14:15, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Sorry DN, could you link to your change? I can't seem to find it. Riposte97 (talk) 20:17, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

He changed it on the Joe Biden page, not the Trump one. I had the same confusion initially. Just10A (talk) 20:36, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Ah. Thank you. Riposte97 (talk) 20:42, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Please do NOT refer to me as "he". They or them is fine. DN (talk) 10:36, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

I disagree MEDRS applies there any more than it does here, but I don't particularly care if it's in the lead or how much weight to give to it, so long as it's there. I will revert if someone tries to remove all three paragraphs about it in the other article though. Alpha3031 (t • c) 10:30, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

An editor has now re-added Age and health concerns about Joe Biden back into the lead on Joe Biden's BLP. I am not going to remove it, and agree that we should leave it. IMO Age and health concerns about Donald Trump now seems over-DUE here. DN (talk) 05:16, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Mx. Nipples, the existence of a section on another page has absolutely zero bearing on what should be on this one. None. We go by consensus, not by precedent. Riposte97 (talk) 05:44, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Off-topic about gender pronouns. ―Mandruss ☎ 21:35, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Please do not refer to me as "Mx." or "Mr." as that appears to be your intent. They/them is accurate. DN (talk) 06:17, 28 October 2024 (UTC) (Given that "x" is nowhere near "r" on a keyboard, I'm guessing "Mx." was not a typo but an attempt to be gender neutral. It can be read as a convenient shorthand for "Mr., Ms., or M-other, as you please". It's the best attempt available, since "They/them Nipples" would be nonsensical. Maybe we don't need to go any further down this rabbit hole, at least not on this page.) ―Mandruss ☎ 06:31, 28 October 2024 (UTC) I simply asked for them not to call me that, I did not get upset or make a personal attack, I just made a simple request. I'm aware of what Mx. means and I simply do not wish be referred to in that manner. I do not care why you think it's any of your business or why you feel the need to intervene here, and that is a rabbit hole that certainly does not belong here. DN (talk) 06:41, 28 October 2024 (UTC) I read "Mr." as that appears to be your intent to mean you thought they meant (intended) "Mr.". Sorry if I misread easily-misread writing. I do not care why you think it's any of your business or why you feel the need to intervene here - Now you're gettin' me riled. Look, you comment on this page, regardless of the topic, and you open yourself up to replies from anybody. There are no "private" conversations here or almost anywhere else at Wikipedia. You want a "private" conversation, use email. That's how it works, like it or not. End. ―Mandruss ☎ 06:49, 28 October 2024 (UTC) You're the one that brought it up here, and I have since moved it to a personal talk page, where it belongs. DN (talk) 06:56, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

↑↑↑↑ Agree as to process. Other articles never affect this article unless a community consensus says they do for a specific discrete situation. This is a common misconception, understandable given the human desire for consistency, but you won't find it anywhere in policy, and not for lack of attempts to make it so. ―Mandruss ☎ 06:00, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

That was more of an aside. See Riposte's removal of cited content on the current subject, referring to a now seemingly dormant discussion. DN (talk) 06:22, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

• Yes. It's been covered extensively in media reports, which is the only criteria that really matters here. Cessaune [talk] 17:50, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

• Question Riposte97 See edit - There has been no further discussion here for the last few days. What is still being discussed? BTW, "age and health concerns for Joe Biden" was added back into his BLP in the lead, and I see no further arguments over MEDRS. DN (talk) 05:34, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

  If you have a problem with the Biden page, take it to the Biden page. There is currently no consensus to add the disputed material to this page. Riposte97 (talk) 05:47, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

  I never had a problem with the Biden BLP, but I asked you what is left to discuss here. DN (talk) 06:20, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

  I'll ask again. What is left to discuss? DN (talk) 20:27, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

  I agree with you that there isn't a ton left to discuss. But the discussion did not end with your proposed addition achieving consensus. As already outlined in this thread: (1) wikipedia is not a source, what occurs on a totally different page has no bearing on this one; and (2) Even if it did, the situations are clearly distinguishable. It's included on Biden's page as relevant primarily because it's the reason Biden dropped out of the race. The same is not true for Trump. Thus, since the situations are distinguishable and consensus has not adopted it, it's unlikely to be added. Just10A (talk) 20:44, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

  To be clear, it wasn't my proposal, and the primary argument against the addition seemed to be that it violated MEDRS, not because this BLP needed to be like the Biden BLP. The Biden BLP was only used as an example of how the MEDRS argument didn't seem to hold water. DN (talk) 20:56, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

  "It's included on Biden's page as relevant primarily because it's the reason Biden dropped out of the race."

  I thought we weren't using edits from one BLP as an example to justify similar edits to the other?

  Anyway, that content was added BEFORE Biden dropped out.

  So, there goes that excuse. DN (talk) 05:10, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

  I thought we weren't using edits from one BLP as an example to justify similar edits to the other? We aren't. That's why I explicitly began the point with "Even if it did". We don't use another page as a source, but even if we did, the situations are clearly distinguishable for the reasons already outlined throughout the post. The addition doesn't have consensus, so it's not going to be added at this time. Just10A (talk) 13:59, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

  Just to be clear, I'm not advocating for the Oaks Town Hall to be used as evidence for concerns about age and health, especially in VOICE. Far from it. I simply disagree that there is any clear violation of MEDRS to include something like (below)

  • Trump, if he served his full second term, would become the oldest President of the United States ever. Since his emergence as a politician, Trump has provided less information about his health than is normal for presidential candidates WaPo

  Cheers. DN (talk) 20:58, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

  Well, that's not really what this thread entitled 'Oaks Town Hall' is about. Perhaps start a new one with your suggested text. Riposte97 (talk) 21:03, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

  Why start yet another thread? Seems like an additional time sink. DN (talk) 21:13, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

• Support - sorry, I missed this on the talk page. Now extensive and increasing sourcing on the topic. Blythwood (talk) 17:42, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

  Seems like the Harris campaign and news media have moved from age and health concerns to fascism. Do you have any new links that came out this week for age and health concerns? Thanks. Bob K31416 (talk) 19:47, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

  Seems there was a YouGov poll and pieces in Time magazine and the New Yorker, recently...

  "As the calls grow for Donald Trump to release his medical records, Democratic presidential nominee Kamala Harris called out her opponent once more during a rally in Houston, Texas, on Friday. She pointed towards the legal battle of Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton and other Texas right wing leaders to access the private medical records of patients who seek out-of-state abortions." Time 10-27-24

  "Over half of Americans, 56 percent, said they believe that Trump’s age and health would impact his ability to serve as commander-in-chief at least a little bit, according to another YouGov poll conducted earlier this month.

  Over one-third, 36 percent, said the former president will be “severely” undercut by his age and health. Another one-third, 33 percent, said those factors will not impact the Republican nominee.

  Inversely, 62 percent of Americans said Harris’s health and age will not affect her work in the White House if she is elected president, according to the survey." The Hill 10-26-24

  "couple of weeks ago, Donald Trump turned in one of his strangest performances in a campaign with no shortage of them—part of a series of oddities that may or may not constitute an October surprise but has certainly made for a surprising October. 'Who the hell wants to hear questions?' he hollered at a town hall in Pennsylvania, after two attendees had suffered medical emergencies. Then he wandered the stage for nearly forty minutes, swaying to music from his playlist—'Ave Maria,' 'Y.M.C.A.,' 'Hallelujah.'" The New Yorker 10-27-24

  "An increasing number of Americans say Donald Trump is too old to be president — but not as many as when President Joe Biden faced similar concerns about his age over the summer.

  A new poll from YouGov found that 44 percent said Trump, at age 78, is too old to lead the executive branch. That figure is up from 35 percent who said the same in a similar February survey." The Independent 10-27-24

  Cheers. DN (talk) 05:44, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

  Respectfully, there is no way this is going to get consensus here. If you feel really strongly, maybe start an RfC. That would probably be the most appropriate way to displace the existing RfCs. Riposte97 (talk) 07:44, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

  I was replying to Bob K3416's recent request..."Do you have any new links that came out this week for age and health concerns?"

  Your declarative statement may be a bit out of place in this context, and brings up what appears to be an inconsistency.

  [33] As you also stated in your recent removal of cited content that is months old (clarify - irl - not the article itself)... "This is still being discussed on the talk page"

  What are the means by which to reconcile "this is still being discussed", at the same time as, "there is no way this is going to get consensus here"?

  Cheers. DN (talk) 08:46, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

  Thanks for your response with the links.

  Regarding the rest of your message, the logic isn't clear. Various messages here are evidence that it is still being discussed and the point that you are trying to make with your sentence, "What is the means..." is unclear. For one thing, note that you are comparing an edit summary on the article page with a message on this talk page. Seems like apples and oranges. Bob K31416 (talk) 13:28, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

  Darknipples has now edited their comment, although the argument isn't any more compelling imo. Riposte97 (talk) 20:24, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

  I was about to add (Btw I corrected my grammar slip) Reverting under the auspices of "it's under discussion", gives the appearance of contradiction to the recent declaration that "there is no way to achieve consensus"

  Granted, I wouldn't completely disagree with Riposte97's removal of some of the context, but the rest seems like it could be DUE. (below)

  • Trump, if he served his full second term, would become the oldest President of the United States ever. Since his emergence as a politician, Trump has provided less information about his health than is normal for presidential candidates.

  A partial revert leaving this portion would seem fine. DN (talk) 20:29, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

  The second sentence wasn't in the given source. The insinuation of being in poor health since becoming a politician is contradicted by the fact that he served 4 years as president without any apparent chronic health problem or physical weakness, and he is currently vigorously campaigning for president. Be careful of age discrimination where healthy people are presumed weak and unhealthy because they are old. If you were elderly, healthy and strong, I don't think you would like people insinuating that you were unhealthy and weak because you were chronologically old. Be well. Bob K31416 (talk) 08:04, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

  "The second sentence wasn't in the given source."

  Good catch, I pulled it from the edit that was reverted so maybe the citation might have been placed further in.

  As far as "insinuating he is in poor health", that is not what the proposal is about. The proposal was for reports regarding public concern for his age and health, that does not involve speculation or "insinuate" anything specific as to violate MEDRS.

  • "The age of presidential candidates has been a key issue for voters this year. A Washington Post-ABC News-Ipsos poll, conducted before last week’s Republican convention, found that 60 percent of Americans said Trump is too old for another term as president, including 82 percent of Democrats, 65 percent of independents and 29 percent of Republicans."

  DN (talk) 09:55, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

  His age is already in the article. Riposte97 (talk) 04:19, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

  Water is wet. DN (talk) 05:30, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

• Yes. There is overwhelming and WP:SUSTAINED coverage of it at this point; the fact that it is speculative (which some people object to above) doesn't matter, since we do cover speculation when it has sufficient coverage and is clearly relevant to the subject. As WP:BLP says, If an allegation or incident is noteworthy, relevant, and well documented, it belongs in the article—even if it is negative and the subject dislikes all mention of it, emphasis mine. For recent coverage, which someone requested above, see eg. ; for older coverage, there's a massive number of sources on Age and health concerns about Donald Trump. --Aquillion (talk) 15:34, 31 October 2024 (UTC)
• Yes. See Public image of Donald Trump#Temperament. Kolya Butternut (talk) 23:46, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Sources

Another reverted edit

@Zaathras My edit was not whitewashing. It clarifies the view of the source, that "research suggests Trump's rhetoric may have caused an increased incidence of hate crimes": a correlation, while not the opinion of the experts quoted in the source that it necessarily involves causation. As concerns the other edit, the "clunky needless wording" is a necessary detail. As it is now, it sounds like its saying that Trump dictated the letter to some secretary or whatnot, without the doctor present. In reality, he dictated it to the doctor, who told him what he couldn't put in it. Anotherperson123 (talk) 22:39, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

@Zaathras Anotherperson123 (talk) 01:14, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

I disagree with @Zaathras’ assertion that your edit is whitewashing, but your edit is written in an argumentative matter. The previous statement states that the Trump comments highlighted were widely criticized, a plain true/false statement. Your “this is despite” implies your addition of text is a rebuttal to the general consensus. It is far from neutral and needs improvement. There should be more discussion on whether Trump’s implied clarification made soon after the comments in question as well. Do NOT edit until there is consensus. Hope this is helpful Slothwizard (talk) 02:04, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

You appear to be confusing two reverts. This diff is the revert I'm talking about in this talk page section: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&diff=1251380654&oldid=1251370072. The edit to the section about the allegations of white supremacy (which was also reverted) is discussed in Talk:Donald_Trump#reverted edit. Anotherperson123 (talk) 03:40, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

My bad. Your addition of Bornstein clarifying what he could not add was grammatically incorrect and unnecessary. Your second edit with adding “may” was not whitewashing; unfortunately the citations are not related to the claim, so I am not sure why that sentence is there in the first place. New sources or remove sentence; unless someone clarifies to me about this section. No editing until more discussion is made, would like to hear more opinions. Slothwizard (talk) 03:53, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

(Do we need to salute and shout "Sir, yes, sir!"?, or am I misreading telegram style?) Assuming that the edits in question are this and this one, reverted here, I agree with the revert. Bornstein: clunky & needless. Trump rhetoric verified by the AP and WaPo cites: "suggests" says that the rhetoric may be the cause. If the sentence had read that "research said that Trump's rhetoric caused ...", we'd have to say "may have caused". Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 18:00, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

The detail is a necessary detail, citing what I have said above, but improvements to the grammar of the phrase can be made. Anotherperson123 (talk) 23:58, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

I assume the repetition of Bornstein's name is what you are referring to when you say "clunky". If it's the repetition of his name then which of these two do you think work?

"to him while Bornstein said what couldn't be put in it"

"to him while Bornstein informed him what couldn't be put in it" Anotherperson123 (talk) 01:52, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

2024 campaign rhetoric "The enemy within"

For consideration in the 2024 campaign subtopic.

Donald Trump has chillingly suggested sending the military or National Guard after US citizens on Election Day. The Independent 10-13-2024

Video from FOX News via Wall Street Journal 10-13-24

"Former President Donald Trump called Democrats and others who have opposed or investigated him "the enemy from within" in an interview that aired Sunday, describing them as more dangerous than major foreign adversaries of the United States, including Russia and China." NBC 10-13-2024

Trump has repeatedly used the "threat from within" label throughout his campaign to label his political opponents, a categorization that's drawn increased attention as Election Day nears. "The threat from outside forces is far less sinister, dangerous and grave than the threat from within," Trump said in that speech. "Our threat is from within." CBS 10-14-2024

In comments that further fueled fears of an authoritarian crackdown if he recaptures the White House, the Republican nominee said the military or national guard should be deployed against opponents that he called 'the enemy within' when the election takes place on 5 November. The Guardian 10-14-2024

But never before has a presidential nominee — let alone a former president — openly suggested turning the military on American citizens simply because they oppose his candidacy. NYT 10-15-2024

The dark comments highlight Trump's increasing bend toward authoritarian rhetoric in his third White House campaign, some political scientists told ABC News."It's really classic authoritarian discourse," said Steven Levitsky. ABC 10-15-24

Former President Trump doubled down on his insistence that his political rivals are “the enemy from within,” even after similar comments drew backlash and became a centerpiece of one of Vice President Harris’s campaign rallies. The Hill 10-16-2024

“I think the bigger problem is the enemy from within, not even the people that have come in and destroying our country." CNN 10-20-2024

For the third time in a week, former president Donald Trump repeated his charge that Democrats allied against him are 'the enemy from within' in an interview with Fox News during which he called the Jan. 6, 2021, attack on the U.S. Capitol 'a beautiful thing'. WaPo 10-20-2024

Cheers. DN (talk) 06:25, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

"campaign rhetoric" so put it there, we have enough about his gobshitery already. Slatersteven (talk) 11:32, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm getting a mixed message here, though I understand why. If it is better left in the Donald Trump 2024 presidential campaign#Authoritarian and antidemocratic statements, I'm fine with whatever the consensus here is. Cheers DN (talk) 22:06, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

BLPN section on denials by Trump

I started a section at BLPN regarding recent deletion of denials from this BLP. Anythingyouwant (talk) 09:10, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

BLPN post and replies for reference

This edit blatantly contradicts WP:BLP. It removes denials from the article despite policy which says, “If the subject has denied such allegations, their denial(s) should be reported too.” See WP:DENIALS. Instead of citing this policy, the edit cites an essay (WP:MANDY) which disagrees with the policy, and which also disagrees with a counter-essay (WP:NOTMANDY). This edit is not unusual at that particular BLP, but it seems worth bringing it up here every once in a while since insisting on BLP policy without support here is quite dangerous for an editor. Anythingyouwant (talk) 09:07, 22 October 2024 (UTC) No, that reversion does not contradict BLP. The subject doesn't deny saying those things; if he credibly did then the section you're quoting would apply. That he said them, though, is a matter of record and not in dispute. The characterization of those statements doesn't require documentation of his disagreement with that characterization: we care much more about what sources have to say about a subject than what subjects have to say about themselves. WP:MANDY wasn't a good counter-argument to use in the reversion since it doesn't apply here, either. Also, that talk page is well-attended and bringing it here with zero discussion there is not great. As prominently noted at the top of this page: Please seek to resolve issues on the article talk page first, and only post here if that discussion requires additional input. VQuakr (talk) 09:31, 22 October 2024 (UTC) We would need a source for these denials. Slatersteven (talk) 11:30, 22 October 2024 (UTC) Most look like they were in the sources that were removed save the first one. But I agree with Anything that Mandy is a terrible essay most of the time. PackMecEng (talk) 16:15, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

Editor VQuakr responding at the Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard referred the discussion to this page. This is the content I reverted here (added and reverted content bolded by me): Many of his comments and actions have been characterized as racially charged, racist, and misogynistic, which he denies, and Many of Trump's comments and actions have been considered racist,[811][812][813] though not by him. "Apples and oranges" apparently wasn't a good way to say he didn't deny saying/doing what the RS reported/characterized. Quoting VQuakr: The subject doesn't deny saying those things; if he credibly did then the section you're quoting would apply. That he said them, though, is a matter of record and not in dispute. The characterization of those statements doesn't require documentation of his disagreement with that characterization: we care much more about what sources have to say about a subject than what subjects have to say about themselves. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 11:31, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

My point was "do RS support this edit", no as they do not say he has said the allegations have not been made. This (at maximum) needs re-wording so not to imply something that is false (he denies such allegations exist). Slatersteven (talk) 10:09, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

fascist in lead

is attributed to ten sources in the body, Zenomonoz soibangla (talk) 05:13, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Fascism is an radical extreme nationalist ideology controlled by a dictator, this does not describe Trump or his ideologies, he is a nationalist, populist, and protectionist republican politician, as mentioned in the lead, “fascist” in this case is being used to describe someone you dislike. Big Mocc (talk) 23:30, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&diff=prev&oldid=1252842766

I’m actually having trouble finding your statement, that some of the people who used to work for him said he's a fascist, in the body. Riposte97 (talk) 05:23, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Milley, Mattis and Kelly. I can add those. soibangla (talk) 05:27, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

I think your sentence is too trivial to constitute a mention in the lead. It wouldn't make sense to include mention of positive characterisation by his former colleagues, either. What am I missing? Zenomonoz (talk) 05:56, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

I contend that (now) 13 references to fascist in the body is not trivial, but rather a very significant matter that is worthy of lead inclusion for a man who seeks the presidency. soibangla (talk) 06:26, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

I now added them to the body, so there are now 13 attributions, which I believe is adequate for lead inclusion, and the inclusion is not up top.[34][35][36] soibangla (talk) 06:00, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

WP:LEAD isn't about number of cites. Per current article content on "fascist", it clearly fails inclusion in the lead. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:38, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

please would you cite the specific verbiage of LEAD to which you refer? soibangla (talk) 07:02, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

the lead section is an introduction to an article and a summary of its most important contents. Mentioned once in a series (described by historians and scholars as populist, authoritarian, fascist) in 2024 presidential campaign is not enough IMO; populist and authoritarian are also mentioned in Campaign rhetoric and political positions. However, it wasn't just historians and scholars, it was also people ("my generals") who worked for him during his term in office (Defense Secretary Mattis, Chief of Staff Kelly) and Milley, who was handpicked by Trump for Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, the top military job — hardly the kind of people that can be smeared as far-left radical-left lunatics. If that is added to the body, then IMO we should add "fascist" to the lead. I haven't read Woodward's book yet, and I still have to go through the numerous sources that were added recently. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 12:41, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm ultimately against the 'fascist' label being included as it's been a subject of contention and debate for 8 years now. The debate is more nuanced than how many citations we can find with the word being included – which is why we should link to Trumpism where this nuance can be explored in-depth. — Czello ^(music) 07:13, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

yes, fascist has been discussed for years, and many have been reluctant and resistant to speak the word, but we now have three senior generals who served him speaking the word, yet the word remains buried in 13 references in the body. I am not persuaded that at this point exclusion from the lead would persist in any other person's BLP under similar circumstances. The sentence does not say he is a fascist, but rather that some historians, scholars and generals have characterized him as such, which is consistent with the body. soibangla (talk) 07:41, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Isn't Trump the de facto leader of a neo-fascist party? The main article on the ideology describes it as including "nativism, xenophobia, and anti-immigration sentiment" Dimadick (talk) 07:45, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

We don't describe the GOP as being a neo-fascist party on Wikipedia. There are far-right elements to the party, for sure, but again that's why we can't extrapolate and say the whole party is neo-fascist and that Trump is their leader, therefore he is fascist.

The topic of whether Trumpism is fascist is still hotly debated, hence why a link to the article where that debate takes place is more appropriate. — Czello ^(music) 07:52, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. I'd also reiterate Czello's point that the lead follows the text of the body. Unless something stated in the body, it should be in the lead. Riposte97 (talk) 08:00, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

waaay down there, the body says "fascist" with 13 references soibangla (talk) 08:13, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Trumpism would not exist without Trump. soibangla (talk) 08:15, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure what argument you're making here. — Czello ^(music) 08:17, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

I see no cause to deflect to Trumpism when its source is Trump, so it belongs here soibangla (talk) 08:24, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Because the Trumpism article is where we can dedicate more space to the nuance of the discussion. — Czello ^(music) 08:42, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

I don't see nuance of discussion there and a short conclusive sentence here as mutually exclusive soibangla (talk) 08:48, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

The article is nuanced discussion from beginning to end. It's pretty solely dedicated to exploring the intricacies of the ideoloy and its leanings. The whole point of having splinter articles is so that we can dedicate more space to exploring these topics more fully without overburdening the parent article – and, in this case, an article that is already much too big. — Czello ^(music) 09:03, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

I would be disinclined at the moment. If we're counting sources, 10 (or 13?) sources out of about 850 is worth maybe about a third of a sentence? I don't think it would be easy to appropriately contextualise that. Relative to the body, we have short paragraph, not entirely about fascism, mentioning it briefly. I see a narrow possibility for adding authoritarian though, assuming the wording is worked out carefully. Alpha3031 (t • c) 08:56, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Seems notable according to Steven Levitsky and the NYT..."never before has a presidential nominee — let alone a former president — openly suggested turning the military on American citizens simply because they oppose his candidacy." NYT 10-15-2024. Cheers. DN (talk) 10:27, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

So notable I do not see the word "fascist" there. Slatersteven (talk) 10:40, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

DN, Do you believe Trump said that as depicted by that excerpt? Bob K31416 (talk) 11:02, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Bob, SS, I was replying to Alpha's statement - "I see a narrow possibility for adding authoritarian though, assuming the wording is worked out carefully." I have not commented on the fascist label as of yet, so please hold your horses. Cheers. DN (talk) 22:57, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Bob. I have started a couple talk page sections with sources on authoritarian rhetoric. See Talk:Donald Trump#2024 campaign rhetoric "The enemy within" & Talk:Donald Trump 2024 presidential campaign#Rhetoric Section Fails NPOV subsection ("The enemy within" rhetoric). Cheers. DN (talk) 23:21, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Two minds this is a BLP, but it is an accusation that is out there, but does this take up a significant part of our article? Slatersteven (talk) 10:06, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

My estimate is that less than 1% of the current article body can be said to address fascism or topics directly adjacent. Alpha3031 (t • c) 10:16, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

I agree with this analysis. As pointed out by @Gråbergs Gråa Sång, it's the content of the article , not number or variety of sources that determine what's in the lead, and the amount of the article that is actually about fascism or fascist-adjacent is low. I think most people on both sides of the aisle understand that this is primarily just a mudslinging pejorative term used in the course of politics. Just10A (talk) 14:47, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Agreed, and that's precisely why it's UNDUE for the lead. Kcmastrpc (talk) 12:51, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Putting "fascist" in the lead, would be quite problematic. Indeed, attempts to add such a label shortly before the US prez election, doesn't look too good as it's likely to stir up emotions. In other words, the timing stinks. GoodDay (talk) 15:03, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Arguments on DUE vs UNDUE aside, I agree that the stability of the article is concerning, and while these issues are separate, they are in no way mutually exclusive. This is the crux of Wikipedia's "Achilles heel" which puts a huge strain on admin and editors alike during elections. IMO though, it is an important discussion that should be held elsewhere, perhaps at the Village Pump. Cheers. DN (talk) 23:31, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Historians and academics should be removed..... just American Media..... zero peer-reviewed academic journals listed as sources. Moxy🍁 23:43, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

What leads you to believe the two are mutually exclusive? DN (talk) 05:20, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

I'd usually agree, but with the assertions by the former Chief of Staff being the latest, this may be inching towards an actual, genuine descriptor of his actions and beliefs, rater than just a political pejorative. Zaathras (talk) 23:46, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

this is no longer about randos calling people they hate fascists and communists and terrorists and pedophiles and any other perjorative they can imagine. it's about Milley, Mattis and Kelly, top military officers he hired and they served under, in the Oval Office. soibangla (talk) 00:55, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Call me a stuffy academic, but I don't believe "top military officer" is a qualification that is of any use (expert opinion) for distinguishing what is fascism and what is merely other forms of far-right authoritarian populism. Leaving weight concerns aside, the attribution required would be entirely too unwieldy in my opinion. Alpha3031 (t • c) 10:48, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

WP:NOTFORUM and WP:NPA vios. At least. ―Mandruss ☎ 02:59, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

@Soibangla Ironic that the very fascism taking root in America, expressed by the fascist sympathizers and enablers here (now echoed in Musk’s tantrum in on Twitler, I meant, Twitter…sorry, typo) IS the only reasonable explanation for excluding well-sourced and documented Trump’s fascism in the lead where it is MORE than WP:NOTABLE. If Trump’s own chief of staff, who was a General no less, says that Trump is the very definition of fascism, then what more do we need? Wikipedia remains broken as MAGA marches on. 2601:282:8980:C0F0:5446:2E0:549A:3FD3 (talk) 20:47, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Real Estate Rental Segregation

Is it really DUE for the first sentence of the Real Estate section to read: 'Starting in 1968, Trump was employed at his father's real estate company, Trump Management, which owned racially segregated middle-class rental housing in New York City's outer boroughs.' ? I'd propose just saying 'Starting in 1968, Trump was employed at Trump Management, his father's rental real estate company.' Riposte97 (talk) 07:12, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

THis seems to be one of the many allegations against him, that he is racist. Slatersteven (talk) 10:04, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

It's not surprising given his prominence, sources still reference the DOJ case from 1973, practically to this day. PBS Frontline Sept 2024...Cheers DN (talk) 10:39, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes, that is kind of the point, this involves him and is part and parcel of his image. Slatersteven (talk) 10:41, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Granted. But allegations of racism are well covered explicitly, as they should be, rather than ham-fistedly insinuated in a section on business. Riposte97 (talk) 10:43, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

It's due. "Racially segregated" is more of a euphemism in this case. The policy was "Whites only". Pappy Fred named Trump president of the company in 1971, and in 1973 the Nixon administration DOJ sued the company, its president, and its chairman of the board (one member, one chairman=Fred) for discrimination against Black applicants for available housing which was then rented to White applicants. In 1975, the Trumps signed a consent degree (the "settlement") agreeing to desegregate. They started to rent to Black applicants mostly in a few run-down housing complexes, leading to another DOJ complaint in 1978. The case was closed in 1982, by which time it had become moot because "[s]hifting demographics would soon make it impractical to turn away black tenants". Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 10:43, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Well again, why not just say that? Why are we whispering behind our hands? Riposte97 (talk) 05:58, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Education level of voters

https://www.cnn.com/2024/10/14/politics/the-biggest-predictor-of-how-someone-will-vote/index.html 50.100.82.183 (talk) 11:52, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

If this needs to be anywhere it is the article about the election. Slatersteven (talk) 11:53, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Trumps felon status should be added to his intro summary

This is literally done for everyone on Wikipedia except for Trump. This is a wilful hiding of information that is favorable to Trump and hides this important information from his google search summary. Please add, convicted felon to his intro to show an unbiased article. 2600:1700:5240:E50:549D:94AA:51E0:CB3 (talk) 15:13, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

is it? Slatersteven (talk) 15:14, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

It is in the lead, in the final paragraph. A recent discussion concluded it shouldn't be in the first sentence. — Czello ^(music) 15:15, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

no, per MOS:CRIMINAL. Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 10:04, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Link to U.S. trade war with China

I think the China–United States trade war should be linked in the lead. Maxeto0910 (talk) 20:15, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

That's not a bad idea. Tariffs were a major part of Trumps economic policies. Zenomonoz (talk) 05:33, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

The edit in which I added the link, along with another edit in which I added a link to his political positions, has been reverted. I've read the RFC, but I think exceptions could still be discussed on the talk page, because the two links I added are clearly relevant and helpful to the average reader, don't make the lead too bloated, and are linked in the body of the article as well. Maxeto0910 (talk) 18:10, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Do not declare Trump the winner/loser of the 2024 presidential election until unanimous consensus is reached.

Trump may prematurely declare victory. On the Sunday of the election, the banner

will be on the page. Per Talk:2024 United States presidential election, until there is unanimous consensus among reliable media sources that Trump has been projected to win/lose the 2024 presidential election, do not post any such claims in the lead or article. JohnAdams1800 (talk) 00:03, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Fair enough, but isn't that what we've been doing since the 2004 election (as in the first election where Wikipedia was a thing)? LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contributions)} 00:21, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

And the sky is still blue. O3000, Ret. (talk) 00:37, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

JohnAdams1800, please do not add the banner. This page has been a permanent "current event" since 2015, and banners were added repeatedly and promptly removed. Numerous editors are monitoring the page, and WP:NOTNEWS is standard practice. The banner is not needed. BTW, the election isn't on Sunday, it's on TUESDAY, November 5. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 09:24, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

We go by what RS say, Trump is not an RS (possibly not even for his own statements). Slatersteven (talk) 09:29, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

On the Sunday of the election Is this intentional disinformation? The American presidential election is set by statute as "the Tuesday next after the first Monday in November" Zaathras (talk) 21:23, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

It’s probably in good faith, as most countries obviously schedule elections when people doesn’t have to go to work. 86.31.178.164 (talk) 08:58, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

I understood that to mean "the Sunday immediately preceding election day". --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 12:13, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

That interpretation works for me. Less-than-crystal-clear wording, but "intentional disinformation"? Disinformation to trick a few voters into trying to vote on the wrong day? Or not trying to vote on the right day? Seems a stretch, and a big one. Here's a spoonful of WP:AGF, which is about not making accusations of bad faith without clear evidence to support them.

Agree with Space4T: Any attempts to update prematurely will be dealt with in short order, and we won't need this banner to make that happen.

Maybe the section heading could be a lot shorter, next time? That helps in multiple ways. ―Mandruss ☎ 04:27, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

That was what I meant. Anyway, I won't add the banner, as the article is ECP and among the most monitored articles on Wikipedia. JohnAdams1800 (talk) 13:02, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Adding links to the lead

I am seeking a consensus to add these links to the lead:

1. populist, protectionist, and nationalist --> populist, protectionist and nationalist
   • These are specific enough terms that the average Jane probably isn't going to know a lot about.
   • I have wanted to click on these before and couldn't. Why not just link them?
2. building a wall --> building a wall
   • This was a major part of Trump's 2016 rhetoric.
   • There is an article on it.
3. initiated a trade war --> initiated a trade war
   • It's a specific and very important moment in his presidency.
   • There is an article on it.

What do y'all think? Cessaune [talk] 20:51, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Blanket-oppose new links in the lead, per my opposition to steering readers from the lead to other articles, bypassing the related body content. Lead-to-body links are a potential major improvement over no links in the lead, but that effort has stalled. That said, a trade war with China, not initiated a trade war. ―Mandruss ☎ 21:04, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Support, as these are useful and relevant links to the average reader which don't make the lead too bloated and provide value for those who want to read more about it. I'd also suggest linking "his political positions". If we'd want to take a more restrictive approach to keep the lead clean, we could leave the links to "populist, protectionist, and nationalist" out, as these are links to general articles not directly related to Trump or his actions. However, the argument that we should try to avoid "steering readers from the lead to other articles" seems rather patronizing and not very rational to me. Maxeto0910 (talk) 21:44, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Support - helps the reader further understand the topic of the article per MOS:BUILD. The mentioned links are all important concepts for the article which the general reader will not be familiar with. --Guest2625 (talk) 02:39, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose - We've enough links in the lead. Keep adding more & we'll end up with a WP:SEAOFBLUE situation. GoodDay (talk) 02:47, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

This isn't a good argument, either logically or based on precedent. For starters, "we've enough" isn't argument, just a statement that means nothing without reasoning to back it up. Why do you believe we already have enough?

And do you truly think the slope is that slippery? On this page? What is being proposed will not create any SEAOFBLUE issues, and this page will likely never contain any SEAOFBLUE issues in the lead for any lengthy period of time. Cessaune [talk] 03:17, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

On this page? Oh yes, the slope can be that slippery. PS - I still oppose your proposal. GoodDay (talk) 15:21, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose. See consensus 60, which, incidentally, resulted from the RfC in which you proposed ten other links. Seems to me that we've been heading down the slippery slope ever since because we already have several Wikilinks that violate the consensus (i.e., items that were in the lead at the time of the RfC, e.g., "many false and misleading statements" and others). And, obviously, items that were added later (e.g. felony convictions). Helps the reader further understand the topic of the article per MOS:BUILD — reading the article and not just the lead would help. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 12:25, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

All you do is essentially referring to an old RfC and arguing that adding more links would violate the consensus reached back then, which is not an argument in itself. We gave valid arguments for why we think that adding further links would be an improvement. Like I already wrote, I think trying to force users to read the article by deliberately not adding links is quite patronizing and not very rational. Maxeto0910 (talk) 14:14, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, well, that "old RfC" is part of the current consensus, whether you consider it "patronizing and irrational" or not. WP:LEAD says The lead section is an introduction to an article and a summary of its most important contents, not a collection of links to other pages. Nobody is forcing anybody to read anything on WP. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 15:17, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

I know that this is the current consensus, and Cessaune and I are challenging it, arguing that adding the proposed links would be an improvement. So far, there has not been a single argument against including the proposed links; simply noting that adding further links would violate the current consensus is a mere observation, and citing this as a reason against the proposal is circular reasoning. Maxeto0910 (talk) 15:39, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

1) I would tend to disagree that the RfC precluded the addition of new links. But let's assume it does. People such as yourself should've been jumping over themselves to revert. If people didn't/don't care to, then it couldn't have been all that important, or—my preferred theory—editors recognize the utility and don't see a problem with it. If, according to you, the outcome of the RfC has been effectively ignored by a lot of different people (including YOU, the author of a tenth of the text on this page and a quarter of the edits—someone who must've been very aware of this) that means... what exactly? Help me out here, because I'm genuinely confused.

2) If the consensus suggests that we are only allowed to add those links, I'm challenging the consensus directly here. So the outcome of the RfC is irrelevant.

3) Do you have an actual argument against adding the links? Cessaune [talk] 17:16, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

As to process, we have usually required significant new argument(s) or a significant change in the external situation to revisit an existing consensus. Otherwise, it's a simple roll of the dice that depends on who happens to show up; we could reverse the existing consensus only to have it restored in a few months after a change in the editor mix, back and forth indefinitely (make that make sense). Otherwise, it's a settled issue and time-limited volunteers have better ways to contribute than putting the same ingredients through the same machinery to see if we get a different product. It is not constructive to allow repeated bites at the same apple, and consensuses don't require periodic "refresh". Unless you meet one of those criteria for revisitation, you and Cessaune challenging the existing consensus is no different from you and Cessaune having opposed it and ended up on the losing side. Do you meet either of them? (In this case, there doesn't appear to be any "external situation" [external to Wikipedia] that could change, significantly or otherwise. So that leaves significant new argument(s).)

By the by, the above reasoning is supported at WP:CCC (policy) in language about as strong as language ever gets in Wikipedia PAGs outside of WP:BLP: "Editors may propose a change to current consensus, especially to raise previously unconsidered arguments or circumstances." My emphasis. ―Mandruss ☎ 20:13, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

I would say that the Abraham Accords RfC is where I stopped agreeing with this kind of philosophy. There were random, relatively frequent discussions all the time as to whether the Abraham Accords were DUE in the article, and all of them ended in 'consensus against' for literal YEARS. Until one of them didn't. I was very certain that an RfC wasn't warranted, and when one happened, I was somewhat certain that the outcome was going to come out as no consensus or consensus against. Yet here we are. This is a very similar situation.

What if I were to suggest that the want to lead readers to information trumps the want to steer readers to the body? Cessaune [talk] 20:33, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Until one of them didn't. Did that one consider significant new arguments? I don't know much about the situation; had there been a significant change in the external situation that increased the DUEness? If either is true, that revisitation was warranted under this "philosophy". If neither is true, the consensus change was solely due to a change in editor mix, which is precisely what we seek to avoid.

What if somebody comes along who disagrees with the current Abraham Accords consensus? Would you support yet another revisitation, actively countering "AGAIN??" complaints, or do you assert "settled issue" when the current consensus is to your liking? Logically, those are the only two options if you reject this "philosophy".

What if I were to suggest that the want to lead readers to information trumps the want to steer readers to the body? I was hoping to avoid this. If you were to suggest that to me, I would respond that you should pick up the ball you dropped in April and get us moving on lead-to-body links again. They would serve both goals, leading readers to information while steering them to the body, and are the ultimate solution to this perennial problem.

All of your three proposed items should be supported in this article's body—else it's a bright red flag that the lead does not properly summarize the body—so lead-to-body links could be used for those items. The link might need to be structured differently in some cases; for example the current sandboxing includes: "During the campaign, his political positions were described as populist, protectionist, isolationist, and nationalist." If we think links to Populist, Protectionist, and Nationalist are warranted, they could and should be provided inline in the body prose.

Thus, lead-to-body links would both encourage and facilitate what are already widely-supported best practices.

Too often forgotten or dismissed: The level of detail in this article's body will meet the needs and desires of many readers, who are not served by facilitating, even encouraging them to bypass our body. Steer readers to the body first, then let them decide whether to drill deeper. Some will and others won't, and everybody will be well-served and happy.

Even if they choose not to read the body content, it's usually only one more click to reach the relevant other article. That effort may be compared to the effort of searching this massive table of contents for the body content elaborating on (and supporting) something you read in the lead. You think that's easy? Pretend you're new to the article and its ToC, forget everything you know about them, and try it for a few cases (no cherry picking). I think you'll find it's much harder than clicking a link in a hatnote at the top of a section you were just directed to. This equation may be different in shorter articles, which is why lead-to-body links should be nothing more than a local option; but they are sorely needed at at least one article—this one—and very likely others.

We offer a hierarchy of detail—lead→body→other articles—and lead-to-body links merely make it as accessible as possible—all of it, not just the first, third, and subsequent levels of detail. ―Mandruss ☎ 03:36, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

1) I actually tried to resume working on lead-to-body links, but I kept getting shut down by more experienced template editors and I still don't know how to solve the issue of switching text colors from white to black depending on the user's chosen theme.

2) If lead-to-body links aren't an option, then what? Cessaune [talk] 03:38, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

1a) "Shut down" how and on what basis? 1b) Doesn't sound insurmountable to me.

2) Premature question. As far as I'm concerned, they're an option until our best shot fails. We can cross that bridge if and when we come to it. ―Mandruss ☎ 03:57, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

I'll ask again to see if anyone knows how to solve the theme issue. Cessaune [talk] 04:24, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

@Cessaune: I suggest vagueness, leaving the reason for asking out of it if at all possible. Regrettably, many editors will find reasons why "it can't be done" (or will merely be less helpful than they could be) if they oppose the underlying goal/proposal. And this is not an issue to be resolved in template space, WP:VPT, etc. ―Mandruss ☎ 04:53, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Also, for the record, I'd be willing to suggest that pushing this is functionally the same as pushing for more links in the lead, considering that efforts of this sort have been shut down before... Cessaune [talk] 16:23, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

In my view, what we're proposing now is significantly superior to what has been shut down before (that's a whole other discussion). We've had more experience articulating the argument, so we do it better now. We've seen some of the major opposition arguments, so we can counter them before they're made. And it's had time to attract a larger support base, including Khajidha below. So I wouldn't let the past predict the future in this case. Otherwise I'm not sure what you mean by "functionally the same". ―Mandruss ☎ 21:09, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose any and all links in lead. Full stop. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 12:08, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Clarification, "links" here refers to links to other articles. I still think the experiment we had with links to the relevant sections of this article was a good idea. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 12:11, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Do you have a justification for this? Cessaune [talk] 16:22, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose 132.147.140.229 (talk) 16:38, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Social Security Funding

In this edit, Darknipples reinserted a part of the healthcare section dealing with social security. Leaving aside the placement of social security in healthcare, is this due? Of all the crazy shit Trump says, a single comment in 2020 with no policy implications seems low on the list. Riposte97 (talk) 06:03, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

? Medicare is a health insurance program for people age 65 or older and younger people with disabilities, so the healthcare section seems appropriate. Trump's budget for 2021 proposed spending reductions, and he also proposed cuts to Medicaid. He's also saying during the current campaign that he’s open to cuts to Medicare and Social Security but that would belong elsewhere. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 15:39, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

I was referring to 'other social safety net programs', which I took to refer to SS. In any case, the core criticism is that it doesn't seem DUE. Riposte97 (talk) 21:05, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

something feels missing on lead

By reading the lead, this is an exceptionally different read than other politican pages on wikipedia. It is almost exclusivelly composed of criticism. It feels extremelly strange that there is almost no direct analysis of how Trump won the US election. This is the only phrase that refers to it:

"During the campaign, his political positions were described as populist, protectionist, and nationalist."

It feels so underdeveloped, indirect, as if it was avoiding the topic entirelly. Am I the only one feeling that this is an issue? Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 10:58, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

No as the lede is a summery, the body is for more detailed reading into the subject. Slatersteven (talk) 11:31, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

There are dozens if not hundreds of Wikipedia articles about Trump. His single-page, top-level biography is not the place to fully address things like direct analysis of how Trump won the US election. Interested readers need to drill a little deeper than this article—a task made very easy by the in-context links found in the article.

As for almost exclusivelly composed of criticism, read Talk:Donald Trump/Response to claims of bias. Since your comment has a little specificity, I'm opting not to close this thread per current consensus item 61. Other editors are free to disagree, as always. ―Mandruss ☎ 19:40, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Nothing against the criticism. Also I am asking, not even touched the edit button, so it would be kind of aggressive to shut the topic down immediatelly.

I am not talking about fully adress, with "direct analysis" I still meant a summarization, same as it is done with criticism.

I've read the link you are providing. It states "Wikipedia's neutral point of view policy requires us to report the bad (negative) with the good (positive), and the neither-bad-nor-good, in rough proportion to what's said in reliable sources, which in this case are largely major news outlets."

I just remember that Trump victory was not an easy prediction, that it was very notable and widely analised by major news outlet. Just that. This is the main reason why the lead sounds weird to me. Like I said there is that phrase that at least refers to why he could have won, but it is very much indirect. Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 20:02, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Ok, but this can't go anywhere unless you propose specific change(s), supported by reliable sources. It's fairly uncommon for someone else to take up your banner just because you brought up the topic. If you ask, "Who supports me on this?", the common response will be "I don't know, that depends on the specifics. I don't support or oppose vague generalities." ―Mandruss ☎ 02:35, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Sorry for the late reply. I couldn't edit in the past week.

I think it is a reasonable path to ask for other editors opinions before having a fully formed one myself to propose an edit.

I don't know what the best formulation would be to add a phrase about why and how Trump won his first election. But, like I said, I feel that it is a crucial piece of info currently missing. This feeling is supported by reading reliable sources at the time obviously. The fact that Trump won was arguably the most notable event of his life, full of social insights.

Also note, and that's what I found strange, that there is (as it should) a whole paragraph about that election already. Russian interference is noted, him losing the popular vote is noted, protests are noted, his campaign tone is noted yet... No direct mention or why/how he won.

Again, how do you, and other editors, feel about this? I am not asking anybody to take my banner, feel free to disagree. Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 13:40, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

The Electoral College. He won because of the Electoral College. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 14:18, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

@Khajidha thank you for coming to the discussion. That is already presented on the paragraph! It is clearly written that he lost the popular vote.

Don't you think that one phrase with analysis of why he won could be helpful? Note that the lead for 2016 United States presidential election is attempting to do something like that, with poor results in my opinion. Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 14:33, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

No. The mechanics of the win is relevant to the election article and the article about his presidency, but not really to this article. Especially not to the lead. This is the article about Trump (the person), the fact that he won the 2016 election is the important part for the intro here. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 14:36, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Fair enough, is should be more developed on those two pages' leads.

But there already are broader social informations on the election paragraph in this lead. It mentions that Russia interfered to favor Trump, despite not being an action of Trump (the person), and the subsequent protests. How is a single phrase that directly refers to why he won less relevant than those two elements? Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 15:47, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Replacing the caption of Trump's 1964 yearbook picture

I changed the caption from "Trump at the New York Military Academy, 1964" to read "Trump 1964 yearbook picture with medals borrowed from a classmate", with cite, and was reverted with the editsum "Unnecessary and conveys less information". (I've since corrected the caption; New York Military Academy is a name like Whittier High School.) My proposed caption needs to be corrected, too: "Trump's 1964 yearbook picture with medals borrowed from a classmate". It conveys more information than the current one which doesn't say that it's a yearbook picture; the name of the school is unnecessary since you can read it in Early life. Borrowed medals: if Trump had been a member of the military, that would have been called "stolen valor".

Buettner/Craig text

If Donald resented taking orders from a contemporary like Witek, he still craved the tokens of status conferred by the system. Like most cadets, he had earned a few medals for good conduct and being neat and orderly. But his friend, Michael Scadron, had a full dozen by their senior year. On the day yearbook portraits were being taken, Donald showed up in Scadron’s barracks room and asked to borrow his dress jacket with the medals attached, Scandron told us. Donald wore those medals for the portrait, perplexing some of his fellow cadets. “He’s wearing my medals on his uniform,” Scadron later recalled. “I didn’t care one way or the other.”

Vanity Fair published a longer excerpt. It's the earliest example we have for Trump lying about his accomplishments/successes, illusion rather than reality. IMO that's less trivial than the yearbook picture itself. Opinions? Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 17:29, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Either remove the picture or make it clear these are not his medals. Slatersteven (talk) 17:34, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

The detail about the medals (as reprehensible as it is) is not something that belongs in the caption. The whole affair should be covered in the article text.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 22:35, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. Better covered in prose, subject to DUE as always. I'm not convinced it clears the bar, but that's really a separate issue that could be handled separately for the sake of organization. I'm confident you don't need to be informed that as reprehensible as it is is irrelevant for our purposes; moral judgments are never a factor. ―Mandruss ☎ 00:29, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Yep, I was just trying to make it plain that I am not trying to hide unflattering facts.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 00:49, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

We should never need to explain ourselves like that, in my book. It's essentially apologizing for being a good editor. If someone suspects you of trying to hide unflattering facts, that's on them. ―Mandruss ☎ 01:05, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

How about the caption "Trump's 1964 yearbook picture"? I don't think the name of the boarding school is more important than the fact that it's a yearbook picture. And for the uninitiated it sounds as though Trump was a cadet at an actual military academy. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 14:13, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

I don't think the name of the boarding school is more important than the fact that it's a yearbook picture. Omit the almost-obvious. Sure, he could've had the portrait made just so he could carry it in his wallet and gaze upon it from time to time, but that's not going to be a reader's first guess. And for the uninitiated it sounds as though Trump was a cadet at an actual military academy. The adjacent prose says NYMA is "a private boarding school". We're not catering to readers who just look at the pretty pictures and read their captions. And the only "1964" currently in the prose is about entering Fordham. So your proposal would be confusing, requiring readers to know that Fordham students don't wear uniforms. ―Mandruss ☎ 04:58, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Wording of sentence on Trump attending New York Military Academy

@Zaathras you appear to have violated the contentious topics procedure by reverting the restoration of longstanding content. Please self-revert immediately.

I note that the New York Military Academy uses a definite article when referring to itself. Riposte97 (talk) 21:58, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

It seems you have invented a designation that appears nowhere in WP:CTOP, and even if it did, it would not apply to simple grammatical tweaks. Zaathras (talk) 22:05, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

It's a 1RR violation. The content is clearly disputed, so it should be dealt with on the talk page. Again, please self revert while we discuss it here. Riposte97 (talk) 23:08, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

One revert is not a 1RR violation. Please do not bandy about terms which you appear to be unfamiliar with. Zaathras (talk) 22:51, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Take it to AN. DN (talk) 22:51, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

I've now reverted the text to the longstanding version which wasn't the one I edited yesterday — another editor edited part of the sentence on October 16, so IMO 1RR wouldn't apply. The wording of the sentence is a separate issue from the caption. As for the school using the definite article when referring to itself, they do and they don't. (And does it matter? See Trump University.) Here are three examples for the school referring to itself and another private school the correct way: "At NYMA, we’re dedicated to preparing you for the future"; "At NYMA, our partnership with Canterbury Brook Academy (CBA) significantly enriches students’ holistic development"; "The mission of New York Military Academy is to develop the cadets in mind, body, and character". And an example of the incorrect way: "The mission of the New York Military Academy is to develop the cadets in mind, body, and character". (Not a typo, same sentence, once with "the" and once without.) Names of colleges, universities, and other schools. Use "the" if the school’s title includes "of" or "for" (University of Maryland, Perkins School for the Blind). Don't use "the" if the school is named for a person or place (Baylor University, Harvard University).

• Longstanding content: At age 13, he entered the New York Military Academy, a private boarding school.
• Proposed wording: At age 13, his father sent him to New York Military Academy, a private boarding school.

Reason: Trump didn't enter of his own volition, his parents entered him at NYMA. Kranish/Fisher: "Near the end of seventh grade, Fred discovered Donald’s knives and was infuriated to learn about his trips into the city. He decided his son’s behavior warranted a radical change. In the months before eighth grade, Fred Trump enrolled Donald at the New York Military Academy, a boarding school 70 miles from Jamaica Estates." Gwenda Blair: "In 1959, when he was thirteen, Donald Trump went off to New York Military Academy (NYMA) ... an institution that in the fall of 1959 resembled a child's toy soldier set". Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 12:53, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Re the "the", can we agree that site-wide consistency as to the NYMA case is a worthy goal? If so, we need a single venue to discuss and decide the issue, which can then be easily found and referenced by editors of other articles containing references to NYMA. I would suggest the NYMA article, which currently omits the "the". In other words, any discussion of guidelines and other factors should occur there, not here. The discussion here should be: "The NYMA article omits the 'the'. End."

This is one of the very few situations where a different article should influence this one. Can I articulate the difference? Probably not. But it would be hard to assert "other stuff exists" about this; the "the" should be universally present or universally omitted for NYMA. ―Mandruss ☎ 21:32, 30 October 2024 (UTC) Edited 23:28, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Although this is a minor point, the school itself uses 'the' when referring to itself using its full name, but omits the 'the' when using the acronym NYMA. Sources > Wikipedia imo. See: https://www.nyma.org Riposte97 (talk) 23:16, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

any discussion of guidelines and other factors should occur there, not here. Anyway, this article does not currently use the NYMA acronym. ―Mandruss ☎ 23:40, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Not true. The school also doesn't use "the" when referring to itself by the full name, e.g., NYMA website, "Leadership training" section: "The mission of New York Military Academy is to develop our cadets in mind, body, and character"; NYMA website/about: "New York Military Academy (NYMA) was founded by Colonel Charles Jefferson Wright", "The mission of New York Military Academy is to develop the cadets in mind, body, and character". Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 12:42, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Would anyone really expect a 13-year-old to have entered any school of their own volition? My opinion was neither sought nor desired when it came time for me to begin high school. I just can't see anyone interpreting the longstanding version the way you are worried about. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 16:52, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

The classmate he borrowed the medals from did, according to Buettner/Craig. I did, too, come to think of it (at 15, and not military school, though:). Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 17:52, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Are you extrapolating overall reader behavior from a sample size of 2? ―Mandruss ☎ 07:15, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes! I'm considering a career change — Rasmussen pollster. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 13:11, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Where is the DUE case for "his father sent him to"? How much RS has discussed this issue? Key word: discussed, which does not mean merely saying that his father sent him. To the author of the source, that could be an arbitrary alternative to "he entered", a matter of writing style. Beware of WP:OR and avoid reading between the lines in sources.

I don't think two or three good sources would do it for me. Even ignoring the article bloat. Maybe four good sources. ―Mandruss ☎ 07:55, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

How about removing kindergarten and just mentioning that he attended school X through grade 7 and school Y from grade 8 to 12? Current version:

He grew up with older siblings Maryanne, Fred Jr., and Elizabeth and younger brother Robert in the Jamaica Estates neighborhood of Queens, and attended the private Kew-Forest School from kindergarten through seventh grade. At age 13, he entered the New York Military Academy, a private boarding school.

Proposed version:

He grew up with older siblings Maryanne, Fred Jr., and Elizabeth and younger brother Robert in the Jamaica Estates neighborhood of Queens. He attended the private Kew-Forest School through seventh grade and New York Military Academy, a private boarding school, from eighth through twelfth grade.

This may be my bias talking, but "entered the New York Military Academy" has just a whiff of achievement, such as being admitted to West Point. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 13:07, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

I can't detect any such sense of achievement. Entering a school seems to me to be completely equvalent to "began attending". I also don't see it as distinguishing the manner of entry (personal choice, parental choice, or simply iving in the district).--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 16:39, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, but your interpretation is irrelevant here, bias talking or otherwise. You are going beyond "editorial judgment" in my opinion. Show me the requested DUE case if you want my support. At this moment, I'd be happy with merely removing the "the" per above. ―Mandruss ☎ 22:44, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

For at least seven years, the sentence read (bolding added by me): At age 13, he was enrolled at the New York Military Academy, a private boarding school,[6] and in 1964, he enrolled at Fordham University. This edit on March 15, 2024, changed it with the editsum "ce". IMO, it changed the meaning. I didn’t notice it among all the other edits at the time. I only noticed it now because I’m reading Buettner/Craig’s "Lucky Loser". OR? Sure, if reading RS and forming an opinion is the definition of OR. It’s a tad annoying when every source I found says "he was sent" or similar wording, and there doesn’t seem to be a single source for "he entered" (annoying enough for me to take my mind off next Tuesday and spend half an hour tracking the sentence on the Wayback Machine).

• Kranish/Fisher: "When Donald was 13, his father abruptly sent him to a military boarding school, where instructors struck him if he misbehaved and the requirements included daily inspections and strict ­curfews. 'He was essentially banished from the family home,' said his biographer, Michael D’Antonio."
• Buettner/Craig, pg. 63: "But Fred had reached his limit with Donald. He sent him to a boarding school, a military academy north of the city."
• PBD: "His family eventually sent him to military school in upstate New York".
• NYT: "Mr. Trump said his experience at the New York Military Academy, an expensive prep school where his parents had sent him to correct poor behavior, gave him 'more training militarily than a lot of the guys that go into the military'."
• WaPo: "Trump spent five years at the military academy, starting in the fall of 1959, after his father — having concluded that his son, then in the seventh grade, needed a more discipline-focused setting — removed him from his Queens private school and sent him Upstate to NYMA." Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 19:42, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

OR? Sure, if reading RS and forming an opinion is the definition of OR. 'Twas OR before you presented this DUE case. Now it isn't. I must be from Missouri. Ok, you have my support for "his father sent him to". And remove that damned "the" in the prose, per above, pending a change at New York Military Academy. Please and thank you. ―Mandruss ☎ 20:25, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Sources

Housekeeping

Does anyone have any objection to us removing the superseded/cancelled consensus items from the top of the page, if we don't reuse the numbers? Imo will make it much easier to keep track of what the current consensus is right now. Riposte97 (talk) 08:27, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes. Feels like only yesterday since we've had this discussion and since I wrote that it feels like only yesterday since we've had this discussion: discussion closed July 29, discussion closed April 9. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 11:12, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Settled issue. Twice. No significant new argument(s), and there is no "external situation" (external to Wikipedia) that could change, significantly or otherwise. Not 100% rhetorical: Do we need a consensus list item about this? ―Mandruss ☎ 22:49, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Category: Golden Raspberry Award winners

Vinnylospo, this edit is a 24-BRD violation. I didn't revert it, though, and opened this discussion instead. Mandruss, I think the category is justified because Trump received the Razzie for worst supporting actor for some truly cringe-worthy, wet-lipped pouty work. Two WP mentions: Ghosts Can't Do It#Accolades and Golden Raspberry Award for Worst Supporting Actor#1990s. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 14:36, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

The category has been proposed for deletion, and so far it looks as though it's headed that way. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 18:33, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Trump statue in Philadelphia

Has anyone taken photos of the Trump statues in Philadelphia? Best regards --Yoursmile (talk) 11:35, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Reliability of "reliable sources" for Trump information

Here's an excerpt from "Opinion polls have Harris and Trump locked in a tight race. ‘Gambling polls’ say otherwise",

“I don’t think it’s a coincidence that these markets have been becoming more popular as trust in the media has been declining,” said Harry Crane, a professor of statistics at Rutgers University. “The public wants information and is looking for sources of information it can trust.”

Bob K31416 (talk) 13:38, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

So? Slatersteven (talk) 13:45, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Huh? Are you actually claiming that the sources WP considers reliable aren't any more reliable than gambling sources, and it's all just a matter of opinion? Quoting your source: "If you are dumb as a rock and have a lot of money, you can move the markets in whatever direction you want by simply moving money." Not quoting the source: if you're a member of the public that is getting their information from a betting platform, your family should cut up your credit cards. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 15:57, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Bob, I have warned you about your inappropriate off-topic posts here. And I see from your talk page history that I'm not the only one. Reliable sources are reliable on Trump. And they also point out how betting markets are not reliable. If you keep doing this, I will elevate your conduct to the appropriate noticeboard. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:04, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Please discus user conduct on their talk pages, not here. Slatersteven (talk) 16:13, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Although reliable sources are required per WP:V for adding material, material in what is called a reliable source is not required to be added to an article if it's questionable. Sometimes what has been called a reliable source will say something that is questionable, and if it is fact-checked by looking at the primary source that the material is based on, one can see that it is dubious. For example, recently there was widespread reporting that Trump was acting "bizarre" in an event at Oaks, PA. I checked this for myself with the unedited C-SPAN video of the event, and his actions in context were not bizarre. The point of the excerpt in my previous message is that we have to be careful because the credibility of reliable sources is declining, especially since this is a biography of a living person who is in a heated political contest where reality is sometimes set aside by what are called reliable sources that are opposed to Trump. Thanks. Bob K31416 (talk) 17:48, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Maybe (wp:undue covers that), but this talk page is for discussing how to improve the article, not vague assertions. And no we do not have to be careful, we go by our policies not what the general public thinks. Thus a source would have to be challenged at wp:rsn for us to not use it (and even then consensus would have to be not to use it). Thus this is a waste of everyone's time. Slatersteven (talk) 17:54, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

The majority of sources say he was acting bizarre for a very good reason. You can challenge the reliability of all the sources at the proper forum if you wish. O3000, Ret. (talk) 17:56, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

I checked this for myself with the unedited C-SPAN video of the event, and his actions in context were not bizarre. WP:OR. Textbook. You're not the only editor who does it, but that's not an excuse for you to do it. ―Mandruss ☎ 23:03, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Mandruss, WP:OR applies to material added to an article, not to discussions on the talk page. See the first and last paragraphs of the lead of WP:OR. Regards. Bob K31416 (talk) 23:21, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

You are claiming that reliable sources aren't reliable because you personally disagree with them. This is disruptive, pure and simple. – Muboshgu (talk) 23:41, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

I would dearly love to see you take that to WP:NORN. Always open to learning. For now, I'll stick with my comment. ―Mandruss ☎ 23:58, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

This sort of thing is grounds for a filing at WP:AE. Disruptive and bad-faith timewasting. Zaathras (talk) 00:42, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Lol. Love it when people suggest that other people file at AE. ―Mandruss ☎ 00:45, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

If this is grounds for a filing at AE why don't you take it to AE? Cessaune [talk] 04:28, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

FAQ Q2: convicted felon

Seems to me FAQ Q2 is unnecessary overkill and a waste of space. We already have ample mechanisms for dealing with recurring attempts to raise settled issues, starting with the consensus list. It's not like anybody reads the FAQ before commenting here (no, I can't "prove" that; sue me). So Q2 is essentially redundant with consensus 50. The function of this page is to discuss improvements to the associated article, not to educate the general population about How Wikipedia Works. We have other venues for that purpose, including WP:TEAHOUSE.

I propose removing Q2. ―Mandruss ☎ 00:14, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Yeah I think you're right. Riposte97 (talk) 00:34, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Conservatism template reverted

I take issue with @Space4Time3Continuum2x's revert[37] on the grounds that: "Conservatism" isn't the first ( or second or tenth) thing that comes to mind when talking about Trump. The template adds clutter to an article that's already very big.

I don't think the article was particularly cluttered by my edit and, for better or for worse, Trumpism is a key aspect of the conservatism movement in the US today. Biohistorian15 (talk) 12:41, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

You may have a point. We've come a long way from The Apprentice. DN (talk) 07:59, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Indeed. Even if Trump loses, we'll probably see US conservative figures try to imitate him for decades.

If nobody objects, I'll restore it now that the 24h window closed. Biohistorian15 (talk) 08:43, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

The template belongs. The article size is too large, but there are many things we should cut before this super-relevant navigational aid. From a visual perspective, inclusion where BH15 put it is comfortable and not too cluttered. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 14:00, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Trump allegedly being Jeffrey Epstein's closest friend for 10 years

Hello.

My following edit was reverted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&oldid=prev&diff=1255312828

Would it be acceptable to reinsert the information? David A (talk) 07:59, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Please understand that you may not reinstate your edit for at least 24 hours from the time of this talk page message, as it is a WP:CTOP article with specific WP:BRD restrictions. You may explain why you think it is DUE and provide other reasons you think are relevant. Cheers. DN (talk) 08:06, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

If there is a 1RR rule in place, I am not allowed to reinsert the information, but other members may, correct?

And it certainly seems relevant for the public to know the very extensive degree of Trump's apparent involvement with a child sex trafficker and pedophile, especially given how obsessed QAnon seems to be regarding Jeffrey Epstein. David A (talk) 08:59, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Also read wp:blp, Trump did know him, but that may not mean anything. Slatersteven (talk) 11:28, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

The page is under standard WP:CTOP restrictions (24-hour BRD cycle if your edit is reverted); otherwise, WP:3RR (three reverts in a 24-hour period) applies. I think WP:BLP prevents us from adding the info. Epstein is not a reliable source, and he's the only source for the allegations. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 14:27, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Okay. Never mind then. David A (talk) 19:57, 4 November 2024 (UTC)