Talk:Yule

Etymology

If you're going to speculate in the etymology of a Scandinavian word it's pretty stupid to base that speculation on how the word is used in English related languages. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.213.91.104 (talk) 16:08, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

That's only if you're entirely ignorant about the etymology of language in general, as you seem to be: as English & Scandinavian dialects are all branches of the Germanic family of languages and all derive from the same etymology: lost fragments of Old English idioms can be reconstructed from Norse and vice versa when attests forms exist in one and not the other. This is the way it has been since the beginning of the study of such language and has held true for hundreds of years in the field of philology. 4.255.53.2 (talk) 02:15, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Oak and holly

Neopagan Yule: Isn't it backwards on the page? The page states that Oak dies and Yule and Holly ascends at Yule. I believe this is reversed (at least based on Farrar material). Holly is Waning year, which means from Midsummer to Yule, and Oak is Waxing - from Yule to Midsummer - so Yule is actually where Oak ascends and Holly dies. Double check me on this before changing please.

71.252.181.249 (talk) 05:51, 20 December 2007 (UTC)₵It is indeed backwards, at least according to Farrar. I have just consulted The Witch's God which states on page 35 that the Oak King rules from Midwinter to Midsummer, whilst the Holly King rules from Midsummer to Midwinter.

You're both wrong, the change over points were actually considered to be the Equinoxes. 80.189.135.222 (talk) 13:53, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

Heimskringla

Below I have pasted a section I came across in the Project Gutenberg edition of HEIMSKRINGLA on early celebrations of Yule. I put it here because of the controversy over "primary sources" and because I am not a Norse expert, but I do think it has some interesting fact which could be in part or in whole posted on the primary page.--trimalchio

Describe the new page here.Yule in Ancient Norway

from HEIMSKRINGLA

15. HAKON SPREADS CHRISTIANITY.

King Hakon was a good Christian when he came to Norway; but as the whole country was heathen, with much heathenish sacrifice, and as many great people, as well as the favour of the common people, were to be conciliated, he resolved to practice his Christianity in private. But he kept Sundays, and the Friday fasts, and some token of the greatest holy-days. He made a law that the festival of Yule should begin at the same time as Christian people held it, and that every man, under penalty, should brew a meal of malt into ale, and therewith keep the Yule holy as long as it lasted. Before him, the beginning of Yule, or the slaughter night, was the night of mid-winter (Dec. 14), and Yule was kept for three days thereafter. It was his intent, as soon as he had set himself fast in the land, and had subjected the whole to his power, to introduce Christianity. He went to work first by enticing to Christianity the men who were dearest to him; and many, out of friendship to him, allowed themselves to be baptized, and some laid aside sacrifices. He dwelt long in the Throndhjem district, for the strength of the country lay there; and when he thought that, by the support of some powerful people there, he could set up Christianity he sent a message to England for a bishop and other teachers; and when they arrived in Norway, Hakon made it known that he would proclaim Christianity over all the land. The people of More and Raumsdal referred the matter to the people of Throndhjem. King Hakon then had several churches consecrated, and put priests into them; and when he came to Throndhjem he summoned the bondes to a Thing, and invited them to accept Christianity. They gave an answer to the effect that they would defer the matter until the Frosta-thing, at which there would be men from every district of the Throndhjem country, and then they would give their determination upon this difficult matter.

16. ABOUT SACRIFICES.

Sigurd, earl of Hlader, was one of the greatest men for sacrifices, and so had Hakon his father been; and Sigurd always presided on account of the king at all the festivals of sacrifice in the Throndhjem country. It was an old custom, that when there was to be sacrifice all the bondes should come to the spot where the temple stood and bring with them all that they required while the festival of the sacrifice lasted. To this festival all the men brought ale with them; and all kinds of cattle, as well as horses, were slaughtered, and all the blood that came from them was called “hlaut”, and the vessels in which it was collected were called hlaut-vessels. Hlaut-staves were made, like sprinkling brushes, with which the whole of the altars and the temple walls, both outside and inside, were sprinkled over, and also the people were sprinkled with the blood; but the flesh was boiled into savoury meat for those present. The fire was in the middle of the floor of the temple, and over it hung the kettles, and the full goblets were handed across the fire; and he who made the feast, and was a chief, blessed the full goblets, and all the meat of the sacrifice. And first Odin’s goblet was emptied for victory and power to his king; thereafter, Niord’s and Freyja’s goblets for peace and a good season. Then it was the custom of many to empty the brage-goblet (1); and then the guests emptied a goblet to the memory of departed friends, called the remembrance goblet. Sigurd the earl was an open-handed man, who did what was very much celebrated; namely, he made a great sacrifice festival at Hlader of which he paid all the expenses. Kormak Ogmundson sings of it in his ballad of Sigurd: —

“Of cup or platter need has none
The guest who seeks the generous one, —
Sigurd the Generous, who can trace
His lineage from the giant race;
For Sigurd’s hand is bounteous, free, —
The guardian of the temples he.
He loves the gods, his liberal hand

Scatters his sword’s gains o’er the land-”

ENDNOTES:

(1) The brage-goblet, over which vows were made. — L.

Yule as Sabbat

The writer of this article states: "Yule was the winter solstice celebration of the Germanic pagans. In Germanic Neopaganism it is one of the eight solar holidays, or sabbats, where Yule is celebrated on the winter solstice: in the northern hemisphere, circa December 21, and in the southern hemisphere, circa June 21." I would like to point out that our Heathen ancestors did not have 'sabbats.' The sabbat is an invention of modern Wicca, thus associated with late medieval ritual and modern 'paganism,' as opposed to Heathenism.

This article leaves out the fact that 'Christmas' translates to 'Jul' in some - if not all -modern Skandinavian languages. That seems relevant to me... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.52.63.183 (talk • contribs) .

Well, this is Wikipedia so you know what to do: be bold and edit the article to include this fact.

Atlant 11:49, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Etymology

In this article the writer suggests that the Old English word "géol" is related to geol, the word for yellow. I have read that the word "géol" means "wheel" and referes to the beginning of the wheel of the year.

Nan Hawthorne Dec. 8 noog —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Merriehearted (talk • contribs) 00:10, 9 December 2006 (UTC).

Where did you read this? --Profero 00:51, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

• For someone more etymologically inclined then I, a possible reference for this section is: [1]. — xaosflux ^Talk 15:09, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Removed: "Linguists suggest that ''Jól'' has been inherited by [[Germanic languages]] from a [[pre-Indo-European]] substrate language and either borrowed into [[Old English language|Old English]] from Old Norse or directly inherited from [[Proto-Germanic]].{{Fact|date=March 2007}}" from the article, been there unsourced for too long. — xaosflux ^Talk 01:46, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Wren Boys

In rural Ireland, a tradition "lost in the mists of Antiquity" is that of the "wren boys." On December 26, obviously "christianized" as Saint Stephen's Day, young men and boys would capture a wren, and then go from house to house singing various traditional songs. The most popular is that beginning:

The wren, the wren, the king of all birds,

On Saint Stephen's Night he was caught in the furze...(many variants)

The occupants of the houses visited would offer food and sometimes drink and might even join in the general hilarity, some of the younger members going onward with the "wren boys."

This might tie in with the pre-Christian role of the wren as part of Yuletide celebrations in Northern European cultures.--PeadarMaguidhir 07:23, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

why Germanic Neopaganism

I disagree with the description of Yule as "celebration of the Scandinavian Norse mythology and Germanic pagans. In Germanic Neopaganism" neopaganism is not limited to Scandinavian & Germanic Understanding that Yule Etymology, and its good description of having its roots in "the Scandinavian Norse mythology and Germanic pagans". But this statement is saying Yule is only for Germanic Neopaganism. Its being specific in a way that is excluding of other pagan peoples who also celebrate Yule-time. Recommend making it more general, acknowledge the source, and acknowledge its spread beyond the Norse/Germanic boundaries. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 167.1.120.20 (talk) 16:11, 22 December 2006 (UTC).

I completely disagree - The Norse/Noreg people are Not Germans! Odin in Old Norse Odhinn, and in German he was called Old High German Wodan or Woutan. Norway is the birthplace of the Yule log. The ancient Norse used the Yule log in their celebration of the return of the sun at winter solstice. "Yule" came from the Norse word hweol, meaning wheel. The Norse believed that the sun was a great wheel of fire that rolled towards and then away from the earth. Ever wonder why the family fireplace is such a central part of the typical Christmas scene? This tradition dates back to the Norse Yule log. It is probably also responsible for the popularity of log-shaped cheese, cakes, and desserts during the holidays. Please change it back to: "celebration of the Scandinavian Norse mythology and Germanic pagans. In Germanic Neopaganism" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.142.121.55 (talk) 00:19, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

The word "Yule" is a germanic word celebrated into prehistory as a Germanic custom. If other ethnic cultures celebrated something about the same time of year it wasn't Yule had they related practices, whether having similar indo-European or beyond originating traditions. They were simply not Yule as that is solely the Germanic festival. 4.255.53.2 (talk) 02:19, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Check out the Persian Yalda ceremony. Persians celebrate Yalda as longest night of the year on December 21th. It is an ancient ceremony with family gathering, eating food, singing and staying awake until next morning. Yalda relates to Persian Mithraism which goes back to second millennium BC. I guess there is an Indo-European link right there. Even the names have some similarity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:37DF:9A60:90B5:4D71:FA7C:1339 (talk) 00:09, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

Scandinavian humanist societies

"Scandinavian humanist societies" celebrating yuletide are mentioned in the infobox and in the last section. I never heard of such celebrations, other than among a few eccentrics. It is true that most families celebrate "jul", whether they are Christian or un-religious. (Even some muslim families have started celebrating "jul", i.e. to mimic the celebrations of the majority population - food, presents etc. - of course avoiding specific Christian references, and probably avoiding pork too.) But what "humanist societies" are celebrating yuletide? Is it in one of the references? - PS. I'm a Dane.--Niels Ø (noe) 20:15, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

I can find no reference to Scandinavian humanists societies celebrating yule. I am going to mark the section as disputed.Master shepherd 17:06, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

I know a few non-eccentric Scandinavian individual and independent families celebrating yule, particularly at winter solstice 21 December, some of them in mild protest against the commercial Christmas, some of them as well as Christmas, but neither I have heard of other than very small racist "societies" organizing such events using the "Nordic" tradition for racist purposes. [2] And I wouldn't call them humanists! My impression is that humanists would not organize anything of the kind as to avoid creating a new religion. --Profero 00:46, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Here is a reference, in Norwegian: Feirer humanistene jul? - "does the humanists celebrate christmas/yule?". I'm not a good translator, but the article states that the Norwegian humanists celebrate it in the same way as the christians - each family have their own traditions which is influenced by the external culture - culture coming from the shopping centres, the church, rituals predating the Norwegian christianity, etc. tobixen 13:56, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

It looks like we could conclude that humanists do celebrate Yule - individually. --Profero 18:06, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

I edited the page to just say Scandinavian humanists and I tool off the disputed template. However, I left the citation needed becvause it would be nice to get an English citation. Master shepherd 18:17, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

I think I agree, but could you please rebuild the context of the long sentence more unambiguously. --Profero 20:49, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

OK I edited the section to try and make it a little clearer and more consistent with what little info we have. I removed the stuff about tomte as a precursor to Santa as I found no evidence for that anywhere. I still feel uncomfortable with the section since I am not personally familiar with these Yule celebrations and i can't read Norwegian. Master shepherd 05:45, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Disputed etymology

The reason I removed this link to the amateur argument is that its conclusion is based on the assumption that the word "Jol" cannot be related to "Wheel" because "Jol" existed long before the introduction of the wheel to Europe. This conclusion overlooks the fact that a wheel, or any circular object or concept, does not necessarily have to be a practical wheel in that particular sense, and therefore not a good reason to exclude the possibility that people in the ancient tradition of "Yol" couldn't have used the word for a cyclic event. But, on the other hand, this does not disprove (the) other etymological possibilities.

I have also added the {{disputed}} tag and rephrased a few sentences as a consequence.

I suggest there is even a possibility that the bright yellow sun-disc (wheel), could be the origin of all the subsequent different branches: Géol, Jolly, Gold, Guld, Gul, Yéol, Yellow, Yule, Jul, Hjul, Helios!
--Profero 01:12, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Okay, this conflicts with another wikipedia entry. Which is correct?

From the entry on "Yule Log" -

In Northern Europe, winter festivities were once considered to be a Feast of the Dead, complete with ceremonies full of spirits, devils, and the haunting presence of the Norse god, Odin, and his night riders. One particularly durable Solstice festival was "Jol" (also known as "Jule" and pronounced "Yule"), a feast celebrated throughout Northern Europe and particularly in Scandinavia to honor Jolnir, another name for Odin. Since Odin was the god of intoxicating drink and ecstasy, as well as the god of death, Yule customs varied greatly from region to region. Odin's sacrificial beer became the specially blessed Christmas ale mentioned in medieval lore, and fresh food and drink were left on tables after Christmas feasts to feed the roaming Yuletide ghosts. Even the bonfires of former ancient times survived in the tradition of the Yule log, perhaps the most universal of all Christmas symbols. - JP

Undoubtably the two articles should be synchronized. But could you perhaps specify exactly what you consider the conflicting part and what should be correct historical facts in relation to my entry above. From my point of view, what you are quoting from Yule log may be correct even if the article 'does not cite its references or sources'. Apart from that, I am only suggesting that "Yule" could be a reference to a 'helio(!)-cyclic event – I agree that even if the words Hjul and Wheel may not have the same etymological origin it is of no importance in this case. I was, however, specifically pointing to something I found to be an erroneous conclusion in the 'amateur argument'. – And, by the way, do you not agree that it is plausible that Odin was the The Golden, Jolnir, Sun-God, " in Nordic mythology and wouldn't contradict anything, but fits jolly good into the golden puzzle?

(Please remember to sign your posts using four tildes (~~~~)). --Profero 02:10, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

In a discussion with a native Egyptian scholar today, while talking of the ancient history of Egypt, Cleopatra, of course, was mentioned. What I found interesting was that he did not pronounce her name as we are used to in English (or Scandinavian and other languages). I had to ask him to repeat it for me several times; he was saying Keleo-patra. I asked him if he knew the etymological origin of the name and he replied that '-patra' most likely is of the same origin as 'rock' or 'stone' or even 'father'. So what about 'Keleo-'? Could the 'K' (or 'C' or 'Ch') also have been pronounced as a deep "Ch'-sound? In other words: is 'Keleo' of the origin as 'Helio' and so on...? Does Cleopatra mean 'Glorious' 'stone' or perhaps 'Glorious' 'Father'?

Now some sources claim that 'Cleo' is related to 'Key', which could also lead to 'The Key of The Fatherland".

So I look forward to an etymology scholar's clarification or guidance on this subject as well as other's educated suggestions. --Profero 21:16, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Did you check OED? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.17.194.130 (talk) 14:19, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

in the old manx language, the festival of Geul translates as the festival of mistletoe. on top of that geul is root to geuley which in manx means shackle, link or chain ring. mistletoe being a parasite, shackles itself to various trees. in pagan tree worship, mistletoe is also considered the link between the trees that rule different times of year. has any one found anything on the manx etymology? it may be the only surviving language to still have a literal meaning for the word.Some thing 21:50, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

That meaning is probably tied for the root for "yoke" in the same cognate root as the Scandinavian forms of "and": 'ok', 'og', 'oc' - meaning to bind, e.g. 'yoke together'. Nagelfar (talk) 09:36, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Well, Svenska Akademiens ordbok outright dismisses the connection with "hjul" [3]. The current source in this article is from 1909, so unless someone has something more modern, the section should be rewritten.

Andejons (talk) 17:57, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

Jule brag

This midwinter I was asked by a friend what my "Jule brag" would be... Old Norse form of a New Year's resolution... Made before the gods... A little more umph than a simple resolution. I can't find anything about this reputed custom on the internet. Might fellow wikipedians help me out? Thanks... Emyth 13:26, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Yule is not a solstice holiday

Is there any source for the date of Yule as Dec. 24 to Jan. 6? This is fourteen days and Yule is usually given as twelve days. The box gives Yule as the Dec. 21 or Dec. 22. This is appearently based on the assumption that Yule is the day of the winter solstice. But what is the basis for claiming this? The article should not be arguing with itself and is therefore in need of a rewrite. The traditional date of Yule was determined by a lunar calendar, so in general none of days of Yule would correspond to the date of the solstice. It is likely that the first day of Yule was the day that the crescent of first new moon of the year became visible. Bede gives the date of Yule as Dec. 25. This is persumably the date Yule was assigned when it was transferred to the Julian calendar, perhaps in order to Christianize the festival.[4] Kauffner 06:46, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

You have an interesting reference here that enhances the probability that Yule occurred on different days according the moon's phases that are not 'in sync' with the days of the solar year. We could assume that the return of moonlight must have been a more spectacular (and more exact) event, from a visual point of view, than the less observable fact that the days very slowly begin to get longer. This, however, does not exclude the possibility that Yule was a celebration of (the time around) winter solstice, and neither excludes Yule as the beginning of a new year.

On the other hand it doesn't either prove that a celebration of a new year had anything to do with the celebration of the returning sun in some cultures at different epochs. Bede could also have been mistaken as noted here. --Profero 11:28, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

i recant, after reading "pagen history of europe". despite the appropriated traditions, pre-christianianization solstice celebrations didnt seem to be called jul/yule. this however; doesn't negate the currently existing application by many groups, of yule directly to the solstice.Some thing 18:44, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

the 'citation needed' about Yule and Christmas being used interchangeably

I would definitely support this from personal experience. It seems like looking for a citation that states that hamsters are a common pet. Glennh70 14:38, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

The Oxford dictionary defines "Yule" as meaning Christmas. I think that enough proof right there. Some people try to separate them, using "Yule" for the secular aspects and "Christmas" for the religious aspects, but that's a modern movement. Pagans have also tried to claim the word "Yule", but again that's recent. I once made cards saying "Yuletide greetings", because I thought it was a safe, traditional phrase that avoided any controversy over the word "Christmas". One of my coworkers accused me of promoting paganism :-( 69.159.196.72 (talk) 20:04, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Norway section, outdated? poorly written? complete rubbish?

user:209.214.104.112 has deleted the Norway section several times in protest of the section's bad writing and inaccuracies. All information correlates with the Jul (Norway) article. I doubt this information was made up, but it could be out of date or even misplaced. Citations would be appreciated. The article currently only cites the Norwegian ministries cite. Can any one lend to this issue?209.214.104.112 13:53, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

CHANGED INTRODUCTION

The introductory paragrpaph made claim that Christmas was superimposed ideologies over Yule practices. While many neo-pagans make such speculation, Christains would disagree with such notion. This sentence was pure speculation. 69.246.224.100 (talk) 22:32, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

--The second paragraph: "In pre-Christain times" is too vague... Which centuries?, What Source for Verifiability? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.246.224.100 (talk) 22:37, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

--The following paragraph needs reworked: In pre-Christian times,[vague] Germanic tribes celebrated Yule from late December to early January on a date determined by a lunar calendar.[1] ((According to...?) When Christianity was just beginning, Christmas was set on the dates of Yule. ((The theory s/he holds is that...)during Christianization, Yule was suppressed by the Christian Church. ((Certain [historians], (authors) (anthropologists) such as, ?, ?, and ? believe that)) many of the Yule traditions were eventually incorporated into Christmas celebrations.[2] (Coloquially) the terms "Yule" and "Christmas" are often used interchangeably[3], ((especially in Christmas carols--delete because context is irrelevent.)) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.246.224.100 (talk) 18:00, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Date of Yule

Pretty much any reference book you consult will equate Yule with Christmas, thus implying a date of December 25. It was obviously celebrated on a different date in pre-Christian times, but there is no way of knowing what that date was. The claims made to the effect that was celebrated on December 24, June 21, or whatever are unsourced and bogus. Kauffner (talk) 03:27, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Yule is the celebration of Christmas, or celebrations surrounding Christmas, not Christmas itself. If you ask a Dane when Jul is, he will either answer 1th to 24th of December (because Yule is celebrated throughout December) or simply the evening of the 24th of the December. That Christian Christmas is on the 25th is irrelevant for the cultural date of Yule/Jul. To make a short list: Yulemonth is December, the Yuledays is 25th and 26th, and Yule itself is the evening of 24th. I assume that this is almost identical to Swedish and Norwegian traditions. Carewolf (talk) 20:53, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Just to explain why I emphasize the Scandinavian countries. This article is about the celebration of Yule, not Christmas. The Anglo-saxon cultures generally has celebrated Christmas, which is a Christian holiday, but the Scandinavians has celebrated Yule which is a pre-Christian holiday adapted to Christianity and now a modern secular holiday/season. If Christmas and Yule was the the same thing the articles would have been merged. The reason this is a separate article is because it deals with a different tradition. Carewolf (talk) 21:08, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

In Danish, December 24 is juleaften (Yule Eve) while December 25 is første juledag (first day of Yule).[5] So I don't think there is any question that Yule is December 25, at least in modern times. As near as I can tell, the jule is the Danish for "Christmas" and the Yule/Christmas distinction doesn't even exist in Scandinavia. Kauffner (talk) 07:29, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

I wont go into an edit war, but the distinction exists. First of all Yule is a generic term equivalent to english Yuletide, the time of Christmas, but with out the christian angle. In Danish we can talk about Christian Yule, Jewish Yule, Pagan Yule and atheist Yule, they all use the Danish word "Jul". Jul most often refers to the Christian Yule, but it has a much wider definition. "Hvornår er det rigtigt jul?" "When is it truly Yule?" is a common philosophical question in Denmark, asked many times in radio and tv during december. As I said many will refer to Yuletide (most of December) or to evening of 24th ("Nu er det endeligt jul", "Now it is finally Yule"). Also the dictionary reference you found was interesting because it said Yule was the feast of Christmas. The feast is traditional held on the 24th, even in the UK, right? Carewolf (talk) 19:48, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Agreed,,, to fully apreciate the issue of 24th vs 25th you have to include the original scandinavian calendars began each day at the previous sunset. thus the modern 24th while technically is julaften, jul traditionally begins at sunset. i'll have to find the sources for this or if any one else has them on hand.99.140.188.137 (talk) 20:14, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Christmas is always Dec. 25. You can check this in any dictionary or reference work. I realize that Germans and Scandinavians have a larger celebration on Dec. 24, but that is Christmas Eve. From talking to my German relatives, my understanding is that Dec. 25 is treated as a religious holiday, so the secular the aspect was moved to the day before. With fewer people celebrating the religious aspect of the holiday anymore, Dec. 24 has become the big day. The claim that this practice originated with Vikings or an ancient calendar tradition is something I find highly implausible. Kauffner (talk) 01:29, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

That idea makes sense but it is curious that the people who originated most of these traditions are of the few who dont actually celebrate it on the day of the 25th. also the idea that yule was always celebrated at the night prior shouldnt be implausible considering the strong history of night time feasts and rites recorded to have ocured throughout prechristian germanic cultures. not to doubt your relatives but its an overwhelming number of night time holidays both in the calendar and throughout europe that the church would have had to push into the night. i find that a bit more implausible. but i will not continue this conversation further until i have sources to back these ideas up. due to the lingering confusion over this issue i think either perspective will need reputable sources.99.140.188.137 (talk) 17:56, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Carewolf. Support can be found in Nordisk familjebok, which clearly states that "jul" is from December 24 to January 6 (in earlier times even to January 13) [6]. The same dates can be found in Svenska akademiens ordbok: [7]. December 25 is the culmantion of the Christian celebration, but "jul" is a much longer period of time. If this article is about the more sekular aspects, the December 25 date is misleading, since it is the second day of choice for the celebrations.

Andejons (talk) 13:47, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

I suspect this was the period of celebration in the 19th century. It is Christmas Eve (Dec. 24), then the 12 days of Christmas, and finally Epiphany (Jan. 6). Pagan Yule was only three days long. Kauffner (talk) 04:44, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

Well, so? This article is obviously not only about the pagan yule - at least if you look at the section about modern Scandinavia, where almost everything is more or less secularised Christian or non-religous, without that much of a connection with the pagan traditions. This article seems to jumble together the pagan yule with modern Scandinavian jul on the basis of nothing more than the shared etymology, and either the infobox should reflect this, or the article should be split.

Andejons (talk) 17:45, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

Date of Yule (Pre-Christianization)

The impression from intro and "A pagan history of europe" that yule was placed on the 25th but before this yule had only been celebrated by a lunar calendar. However now i read in the King Hakon "hemskringla" above that "Before him, the beginning of Yule, or the slaughter night, was the night of mid-winter (Dec. 14), and Yule was kept for three days thereafter." was there a solar calendar in use in norway before the julian? because otherwise this source doesnt make since. is this source simply using the word yule to describe midvinterblot... 99.140.188.137 (talk) 17:56, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

The "Dec. 14" was added by a modern editor. I assume "night of mid-winter" is a translation of midvinterblot. Kauffner (talk) 04:20, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

I came here looking for what Yule means in the lunar calendar or germanic calendar, as in moon after-yule, or yule-moon since it seems to be the starting place for the lunar calendar. What is the system that keeps the lunar calendars syncronized with the solar calendars? Was yule the first of the moon that included the winter solstice or (Midvinterblot_(disambiguation)), or the first moon that fell after the solstice, or is the beginning of Yule identical to winter solstice as implied on this article's "Also called" sidebar? Drf5n (talk) 22:28, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

It appears Early Germanic People added an extra month in the summer, occasionally, to keep the count in line with the solar year. It also is probable that the celebration of Yule was a lunar festival; whether it was the lunar cycling straddling the Winter Solstice Night or whether it was the one starting after it, is not clear. It appears to me that Yule meaning the Solstice Night was only a thing in England. 80.189.135.222 (talk) 15:54, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

Confraternities of Artisans

The quote regarding the attempted suppression of Yule celebration among pagan artisans who swore mutual aid and protection to each other has a familiar ring to anyone who is a Freemason. More books have been written trying to establish a coherent theory of the origin of Freemasonry than one can shake a stick at. The conventional theory is that Freemasonry arose from Medieval Guilds, of which the quote suggests these "confraternities" were the precursor. Can you tell me more about the original source for that quote?Guy of Auvergne (talk) 19:30, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Why was the quote and reference removed with no explanation and no answer to my initial question?Guy of Auvergne (talk) 19:27, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

The end of Yule

Why is there no mention in the article about the last day of Yule? Or is it only an Icelandic tradition to have gatherings and bonfires on the 6th of January? Please, any Scandinavians here that can comment. mvh. Anna --83.183.0.117 (talk) 13:09, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

It was traditional to speak of twelve days of Yule, i.e. Dec. 25 to Jan. 5 with Epiphany on Jan. 6 as a bookend. As a practical matter, people nowadays stop celebrating around Jan. 1. The bonfire thing is just Iceland. Kauffner (talk) 02:02, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

I am not Scandinavian so I apologise for commenting but just want to make the point that in England 'Twelth Night' was the celebration of the night before Ephiphany (5th) so not just an Icelandic thing. 80.189.135.222 (talk) 16:05, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

Connections to Yalda

The Iranian world celebrates a winter feast called "yalda", which takes place at the time of winter solstice, (approx. Christmas) and is the traditional mid-winter celebration. The roots of this feast goes back to Mithraist (i.e. paganist) times, when the sun-god Mithra's birthday was thought to be on the day when the days would start to increase in length i.e. when the sun - Mithra's home - would start to increase.

Yalda has definitely at least Iranian and possibly even Indo-European origins, and I'd suggest the same thing for Yule; it was introduced to Europe during the time of Roman rule, when Roman soldiers imported what we call "the Mithra cult" to Europe. I'd recommend double ckecking that and adding that info. Cheers!

Charles

Nazi's replaced "Christmas" instances on official SS documents with "Julfest" and altered celebrations.

Besides here, one can find many instances of how the Nazis resurrected the Germanic holiday Julfest (the word redirects here to the Yule page, it is the German word for Yule) to replace Christmas. It was spearheaded within the SS by Heinrich Himmler, gifts were no longer to be given (this was replaced to on a summer holiday) and different pagan perceived traditions replaced them like large bonfires and the use of the Julleuchter. This should be mentioned in the modern traditions part of the article. That the Third Reich re-used the holiday is quite the notable event in modern times and the modern history of the holiday as distinct from other holidays. 4.255.53.2 (talk) 02:29, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

What Himmler proposed is radically different from what we have in the historic record. It is very much a creation of its own and not a continuation of any historically attested form of Yule. :bloodofox: (talk) 00:01, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Cleanup

This article is a really strange jumble of ancient germanic yule-rites and modern scandinavian Christmas. For example, the infobox says it's a pagan holiday and illustrates it with a modern christmas tree, the earliest record of which is from the 16th century! This article needs to be cleaned up so that it's clear what of it refers to the pagan festivity, and what refer to the Christian holiday that happens to share it's name in a few languages. Andejons (talk) 11:02, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

This isn't a cut and dry case. Many customs hold over from the heathen Yule and the name remains, plus it's celebrated around the same time the heathen Yule was celebrated now. As a result, the holiday was simply Christianized to some extent and continues to this day. :bloodofox: (talk) 14:01, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

I have agree with Andejons. In modern times, Jul/Yule just means "Christmas." The reader who wants to know about Scandinavian Christmas can be directed to Christmas worldwide. Do really think Scandinavian Jul is a different holiday than German Weihnachts? Kauffner (talk) 14:52, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

I do. These holidays, while Christianized to various extents, still retain elements of the Germanic celebration that was Christianized, and they can differ considerably from elsewhere. Nisse, tomte, yule goats, for example. Ever left rice porridge in your attic for your house/farmstead Nisse? The custom commonly remains to this day in Denmark. What do these have to do with "Christmas" elsewhere? Nothing, they're elements from heathen yule still practiced and maintained under an increasingly globalized and Americanized environment (where Nisse appear more and more like Santa Clause, for example). Even more blatantly heathen Yule elements continued until the 19th century (see Grimm). Like it or not, in Scandinavia and to a lesser extent the Anglosphere, "Yule" very much remains. :bloodofox: (talk) 17:17, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Well, there are some pagan elements surviving. But can you really say that the giving food to the Nisse/Tomte at midvinter is a tradition that has survived since the heathen days, and is not a latter invention? And there are certainly lots of stuff in Christmas worldwide that are unique to certain contries (including a decription of leaving porrige for the Nisse... Readers would actually be better served to read that article if they want some pagan connections). This article would be better if it was about the pagan tradition first and foremost, and any remaining traditions secondly. After all, neither Donald Duck nor Christmas trees nor Christmas dinners are particularly pagan. Better to focus on the Tomte/Santa Claus mixup or the possible connection between the ham on the christmas table and the pig sacrifices.

Andejons (talk) 21:08, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

I think it's pretty evident that leaving food for a house spirit is hardly a recent invention or a result of Christianization. These is an agricultural ritual, similar in nature to leaving a final sheaf out for a Odin during harvest, which is a custom that existed in parts of the Germanic world until very recently. I would argue that Christmas trees have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with Christianity and are an obvious holdover from Germanic tree veneration (Thor's Oak, the Sacred tree at Uppsala, Irminsul, Yggdrasil, Barnstokkr, and the list continues) but, obviously, the Disneyfication of Christmas (and in Scandinavia's case, Yule) is a very recent invention. Of course, the celebrations prior to Christianization should be recognized separately from modern practices, yet in many ways the holiday continues very much as it seems to have prior to Christianization (even if people don't know why exactly they're eating that Yule ham, throwing on that Yule log, putting up a tree in their house only to dance around it and sing songs to it, asking a house spirit for (previously a farm) blessings, putting up straw goats (and until recently why someone dressed as a goat came to every house) or, in the Anglosphere, why a long-bearded man is flying through the sky in the dead of winter (Wild Hunt). The list goes on and on for such customs in areas where the term "Yule" is still regularly used for the holiday. :bloodofox: (talk) 09:01, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Conversely, pagan Yule was itself a paganization of Christian winter holiday traditions (which, in turn, developed from Saturnalia). In Bede's time (725), Yule was just the name of a month on the calendar. So the feast must have developed later. Kauffner (talk) 10:28, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Pagan as the Tomte may be, I still ask if you can show that the tradition is something that has more connection with the heathen celebration than the fact that it was in later times done at christmas? The christmas trees can't be traced back further than late medieval times, in Schweiz and Alsace... The christmas ham is a result of pigs being the main source of meat in the old times, and is also a quite modern invention (no records earlier than 17:th century; earlier than that, the ham was saved for summer). The earliest records of Julbock is from the 18:th century. You may choose to believe that these are all remnants from the heathen celebration, but that does not change the fact that there are no records of such an unbroken tradition.

Andejons (talk) 10:38, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

The notion of Yule developing from Saturnalia is very dubious. There's no evidence for this. Further, Yule is first attested in Gothic in the 4th century, and the month name has an obvious associated with an event; in this case a feast (or what further consisted of Yule). Obviously, the term is pretty well represented in Germanic culture, and probably stems from an indigenous winter feast and there's no reason to assume an origin in Roman custom. Further, there are attestations that directly mention the consumption of a Yule ham (and, for example, the boar is specifically associated with Freyr and Freyja in Germanic paganism). Please understand that what we have on the article now is by no means a complete map of attestations. My focus is currently elsewhere, and I'll eventually get around to digging up all Norse sources on Yule and harvest Grimm's records of Germanic folklore associated with it. :bloodofox: (talk) 15:36, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

I agree with blood of ox, Yule is a distinct holiday practiced in Asatru and other nordic faiths, in old times, by neopagans, and etc. 4.255.51.216 (talk) 03:43, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Etymology (again)

This might be of interest to someone working on this article.

*jexwlan sb.n.: ON pl. jól 'feast of Yule (later — Christmas)', OE ʒeóhhol, ʒeól id. Of unknown origin. Grimm DM II 664 (to *xweʒw(u)lan ~ *xwexwlan); Bugge ANF IV 135 (to Lat iocus 'game' and *jexanan); Grienberger SBAW Wien CXLII/8 137 (to Lith jenkù, jèkti 'to become blind'); Meringer WuS V 184 (to Av yācñā 'to ask'); Loewnethal PBB XLV 265 (compound with elements related to Skt īṣā 'pole, shaft of a carriage' and IE *kͧel- 'wheel') [...]

That's from:

• Orel, Vladimir (2003). A Handbook of Germanic Etymology. Leiden: Brill. pg. 205. ISBN: 90-04-12875-1.

It goes on, too. If anyone would like to add some of this, or if you'd like to see some other entries (e.g. *xwexwlan) or the rest of this one, drop me a note. --Aryaman (talk) 22:53, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Any help with the article is, of course, most welcome. :bloodofox: (talk) 20:33, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

I decided to be WP:BOLD and make adjustments accordingly. Seeing as it really boils down to a bunch of speculation, I simply noted that various etymologies have been proposed for the term. Though I doubt the article would benefit from it at this point, if someone would like to dig deeper into the various works listed in Orel's entry, I'd be willing to help. --Aryaman (talk) 23:23, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

I feel the article ought to mention that according to http://www.etymonline.com 'jul' is probably the origin for Franch 'joli', and through Franch also English 'jolly'. --Sparviere (talk) 15:39, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

The Old French, from which it was borrowed into Middle English, is jolif. Oxford's Etymological Dictionary says there is "perhaps" a connection to Old Norse jól, Webster's says "probably". Though I doubt whether including this particular piece of information helps this article (we could just as well add a long list of compounds, particularly from Old Norse), I wouldn't necessarily object to someone adding it. --Aryaman (talk) 19:30, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

The etymology of jolif to Yule follows the widely established opinion of XIX century German philologist Friedrich Diez, whose studies belong to the golden age of philology, which also was the golden age of fantastic etymons (see Nietzsche's philological works). The OED's word on it - to mention one - is as follows: " The origin of OF. jolif is uncertain. French etymologists have generally followed Diez in referring it to ON. jól (= OE. {asg}eól) YULE, or to a cognate German name (indicated by Gothic Juleis November) for the midwinter feast of the northern nations, whence (in ON.) for ‘a feast’ generally; thus *j{omac}l-{imac}vus, jôl-if would be = festive. But the historical and phonetic difficulties involved, whether the word is supposed to have been taken into F. from Norse after 900, or to have been Common Romanic, are such as to render this conjecture extremely doubtful. M. Paul Meyer suggests that OF. jolif might be after all:{em}L. *gaud{imac}vus, f. gaud{emac}re to rejoice, gaudium joy, with change of d to l, as in cig{amac}da, Pr. cigala, F. cigale, Vadensis, F. Valois, and some other words". Since the derivation is at least doubtful, and this is not a specific philology page, I'd say the mention becomes irrelevant. MerlynBlacktawse (talk) 20:21, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Relevance of Harry Potter

I just read this article to find out about the Yule, and was quite suprised to see the mention of to the book Harry Potter at the end. I question whether this is relevant or notable. There would surely be many other works that reference Yule, along with countless songs and other traditions that deserve more note than a minor detail from a contemporary children's book. 86.156.245.248 (talk) 13:20, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Someone slipped it in. I have since removed the text in question. :bloodofox: (talk) 04:42, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

Correcting overview

I added "then Christian" to the part that says "cultural, Pagan" because chances are Yule wouldn't even be known in contemporary times if it weren't for preservation of records of Yuletide traditions by Christian monks and more importantly its deep association with Christmas in later times. The Neopagans wouldn't even know what to celebrate if it hadn't been for Christian monks and the blending of Yuletide into Christmas and yet the two and a half billion Xtians in the world can't even get a sentence? Not even after the glowing paragaphs about the inspiring worship of 95 Wiccans and 82 Neopagans all over the world (read Greenwich Village and West Hollywood) who celebrate the purely neopagan celebration of Yule? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.109.159.228 (talk) 04:45, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

I understand your point, but please see the other side: From the Pagan perspective, those very same Christian monks are the ones responsible for the loss of the heathen traditions in the first place, so they are not exactly jumping at the chance to credit them with "saving" Yule. --Aryaman (talk) 14:27, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Saturnalia

I certainly hope we can put a reference to Saturnalia back in. The statement was well-sourced. IMO, this is the obvious explanation for the origin of this holiday. Saturnalia was banned with the coming of Christianity, but celebration transferred to various Christian winter feast days, including Advent (in Italy) and Epiphany (in England). Yule was adopted as Scandinavia was Christianizing, so it must have been derived from some Christian holiday. The Vikings had a lot of contract with England, so Epiphany would be logical. The fact that scholars cite this theory is reason enough to put it in the article, whether you think it is in "left field" or not. As for the theory that Yule was originally a solstice or mid-winter festival, I suppose that has to be included in the article as well. But I must say that I find this theory much less plausible. The pre-Christian Scandinavian calendar was apparently lunar, so using it to determine the solstice date would have been complex. In any case, Mid-Winter and Yule have always been separate Germanic holidays. Kauffner (talk) 19:06, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

We only have one source on this theory, and the source is not a scholarly work. Therein is the problem. There is simply no reason to assume any sort of winter solstice event transferring from Rome to Germanic Europe; it's frankly a totally bizarre theory. The Germanic calendar may have been lunar, but the Sun was undoubtedly also important; i.e. Bronze Age religion in Scandinavia. Yule is attested as early as Gothic, so it was clearly around long prior to the Christianization of Scandinavia. :bloodofox: (talk)

First off, Saturnalia had nothing to do with the solstice. Saturnalia was on December 17. The Romans celebrated the solstice on December 25, which was a separate holiday called Bruma. Scandinavian religion had many parallels to Roman religion, with every major god being equivalent to some Roman god. So a Yule/Saturnalia connection would be just one more. Many Danes settled in "Danelaw" in England at this time, so they would certainly have been familiar with Anglo-Saxon holidays.

Because Christmas is a solstice holiday, some writers assume Yule must have been as well. But we know that Yule was originally held on some other date. It was moved to December 25 in order to correspond with Christmas. In Anglo-Saxon, "mid-winter" (midne winter) meant December 25, not whatever date Yule was held on before King Haakon. Pre-Christian Yule was presumably held on a lunar calendar date. That date would have corresponded to a completely different solar date each year. The solstice was a tricky thing for ancient people to calculate. In England, Bede was much admired for calculating the date of Easter, which depends on both the full moon and the vernal equinox. The solstice theory assumes that there was someone similar in Scandinavia calculating the date of Yule. Kauffner (talk) 04:31, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Bede's work may have been special to the Christian world, but the pre-Christian world was well at it long prior; see for example the Trundholm sun chariot and various other objects and monuments reckoning time in Northern Europe from an early age. Whatever the case, notions of Roman Saturnalia having some influence on Germanic Yule need to be backed by scholarly sources.

As for "every major god being equivalent to some Roman god", this is not correct; while both religions stem from Indo-European religion and a few linguistic cognates are apparent in theonyms, interpretatio Germanica and interpretatio Romana are notoriously problematic, and no such conclusion can be made. Also, I'm confused about why you seem to be equating English and Roman—are you referring to the Church in Christianized England influencing non-Christianized Scandinavian peoples while they occupied parts of England, and suggesting an influence thereafter? :bloodofox: (talk) 17:09, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

oic. You think of the Norse as the more advanced civilization, while the Romans and Christians lagged behind, a sort of "pagan pride" view of history. I suppose this type of worldview is impervious to evidence. Satellite cultures often imitate the culture of the top dog country, but you seem sure that Rome had no such influence. Epiphany was the winter festival in Dark Age England, thus a possible model for Yule. Kauffner (talk) 01:47, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

No, you don't "c" any such thing, as I neither said nor implied any such model. As for Rome being "top dog", that was certainly never the case in Scandinavia, and that includes both before and after the Bronze Age. Again, Yule, by every linguistic indication, goes back to Proto-Germanic, which would be prior to any potential Christian influence. :bloodofox: (talk) 03:02, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

The Pros-Edda reference

The article says:

In chapter 55 of the Prose Edda book Skáldskaparmál, different names for the gods are given. One of the names provided is "Yule-beings." A work by the skald Eyvindr skáldaspillir that uses the term is then quoted, which reads:

Again we have produced Yule-being's feast [mead of poetry], our rulers' eulogy, like a bridge of masonry.

Citing "Faulkes (1995:133)". I'm unable to find this source.

I can't find anything to back this up in Skáldskaparmál:

• English translated text: http://www.cybersamurai.net/Mythology/nordic_gods/LegendsSagas/Edda/ProseEdda/ContentsEnglish.htm#skaldse
• Old Norse text: http://www.heimskringla.no/wiki/Sk%C3%A1ldskaparm%C3%A1l

gumol (talk) 03:49, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Faulkes's translation is the modern standard English translation and is commonly available. It's there on page 133; Skáldskaparmál, chapter 55 (on collective terms for gods). :bloodofox: (talk) 04:56, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Solstice

Simek says, "The temporal coincidence [of Yule] with the mid-winter festival is rather problematic." (p. 379). The solstice was called mid-winter and celebrated on Dec. 25. We know Yule was moved to Dec. 25 with Christianization. We may therefore conclude that it was held on some other date earlier. Kauffner (talk) 01:11, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

Simek also says "the identification with the mid-winter time of sacrifice is most likely". Did you miss that? We've got an Old Norse primary source (Saga of Hákon the Good) flatly stating that Yule had previously been celebrated on midwinter night for three nights prior to Christianization. In other words, either on and/or around midwinter (the winter solstice), just as the info box now says. This should be clear enough. :bloodofox: (talk) 01:47, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

Finland and Estonia

There have been mentions about related holidays in Finland and Estonia for years. How did they got removed ? Obviously some Nazi decided that non-Germanic peoples cannot be mentioned in an article about a Germanic holiday, which is absurd. Finnish Joulu even redirects to this page and there is no doubt whatsover that it is the same holiday as Yule Warbola (talk) 06:38, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

Unreferenced material was removed, regardless of how Nazis may or may not feel about Estonia or Finland. :bloodofox: (talk) 09:05, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

As of few minutes ago the article even failed to mention that a word of similar etymology to Yule is used in Estonia and Estonian for Christmas. It's a WP:CS and does not need referencing. Given the earlier discussion I presume the fact was previously mentioned in the article but then removed as someone's petty act. Vulc (talk) 21:50, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

Please try and assume good faith Warbola. Your accusations about nazis and what not is not terribly constructive. --Saddhiyama (talk) 00:44, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Oops

I agree Pennick & Jones are fringe, I should have researched them more, though I recognised Nigel Pennick but I clearly didn't. I'm still curious about the idea of a two month 'Yule Tide', 2 30 day months, which was popular a century ago. Dougweller (talk) 19:51, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

What is a date?

"December 25" is a date. It is a date that can be supported by numerous references.[8][9] A favorite theory regarding the origin of the holiday is...not a date.[10] Kauffner (talk) 03:34, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Kauffner, as I made it clear in my edit summary (and elsewhere on this talk page to you), look at some decent sources on the subject, such as Simek—which I've quoted in this article—and you'll find that "December 25" is not the case. In the future, do yourself a favor and don't assume "a favorite theory regarding the origin of the holiday". :bloodofox: (talk) 06:05, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Simek himself doesn't seem so sure about this theory. In ancient times, very few people would have been aware of the exact date of the solstice. In Egypt, they celebrated solstice on January 6 (Epiphany), although this would been several weeks off from the astronomical date. So even if Yule was a solstice celebration, that doesn't yield any particular date. Kauffner (talk) 10:22, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Kauffner, as I have now stated to you several times and scholarship makes clear, dating here is unclear, and thus the info box. I don't know what "theory" you're referring to. :bloodofox: (talk) 17:10, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Origin of holiday

It is completely unclear what the article means by "originally". If you are going to discuss things, at least establish roughly what century you are talking about. Not surprisingly with such a difficult topic, the article makes a complete hodge-podge of things.

Yule was an indigenous midwinter (winter solstice) festival celebrated by the Germanic peoples

this is exactly the sort of half-informed semi-accuracy you would expect to be written by people who compile the article by spending half an hour on google. Wikipedia can do better than that.

Fwiiw, what we do know is that Yule was moved to coincide with Christmas in Norway by Hakon the Good (10th century), and that before that (in the late 9th to early 10th century), Scandinavian jol (not "yule" in general) was held at "Midwinter Night". Saga Hákonar góða 15:

Hann [Hakon] setti þat í lögum at hefja jólahald þann tíma sem kristnir menn, ok skyldi þá hverr maðr eiga mælis öl, en gjalda fé ella, en halda heilagt meðan jólin ynnist. En áðr var jólahald hafit hökunótt, þat var miðsvetrar nótt, ok haldin þriggja nátta jól.

But in Scandinavia, jol was only introduced in the 9th century in the first place, taken from whatever geol was among the Christian Anglo-Saxons. Has it occurred to anyone that jol is not an "indigenous" Old Norse word? It would have to be ol, not jol. It is jol because it is a loanword from Old English. What or when geohol was among the Anglo-Saxons before the 7th century is literally anyone's guess, and it is completely futile to go on about "original Yule" without establishing this sort of chronological context.

If you want to talk about the "original Norse yule", the article is correct, but the "origin" in question dates to the 9th century. If you want to discuss the "original yule", you are well off the mark. In the opinion of David Landau (2010), which I do not necessarily agree with, the origin of the term is biblical yobel. In this recent scholarly opinion, "original yule" is indeed Christmas, more precisely Christmas in ancient Germanic (Gothic) Christianity. The term would then have survived into the (re-)Christianisation of the continental Germanic sphere, much like other terms such as God itself, possibly heathen, and perhaps heliand, all "ancient Germanic Christian" terms. --dab (𒁳) 10:09, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

What to start with here. First, you need to tuck in comments like "this is exactly the sort of half-informed semi-accuracy you would expect to be written by people who compile the article by spending half an hour on google." It doesn't help your case. Good luck finding Simek on Google Books, for example. "Originally" in this case would mean prior to Christianization. The article can certainly be improved on and much expanded, but what we have now is a good skeleton to work with.

Second, "Yule was an indigenous midwinter (winter solstice) festival celebrated by the Germanic peoples" appears to be completely accurate according to general modern scholarly consensus. The general idea seems to be that the event simply continues from Bronze Age and perhaps earlier practices; i.e. a midwinter event involving consumption of pork. That said, we can certainly add a section handling scholarly theories to the contrary.

Third, "indigenous" in this case is in response to its relation to Christian Christmas. In the anglosphere, yule is still current; the "indigenous" is be clear that it antedates Christmas in the region and appears to be native. We can be more ambiguous than "indigenous", but with a history reaching as far back as Gothic, this length of period and apparent scholarly consensus on being a native calendar custom needs to be clear. We can mention Landau, but it needs to be in proper context. The fact that it is recent doesn't really matter for our purposes.

Fourth, there's always some scholar somewhere claiming (or who has claimed) that any given aspect of Germanic paganism extends from Christianity. This came to a head at Bugge but remains a reality now. In that respect this topic is not unique. We can handle it like any other theory, but this is a minority position.

Fifth, "But in Scandinavia, jol was only introduced in the 9th century in the first place, taken from whatever geol was among the Christian Anglo-Saxons. Has it occurred to anyone that jol is not an "indigenous" Old Norse word? It would have to be ol, not jol. It is jol because it is a loanword from Old English." I don't have to go any further with this. There are a variety of issues here and I'm not interested in discussing etymology here. Suffice to say produce a source or leave it alone.

Finally, if you want to engage in conversation here, I highly suggest you leave the attitude at the door. If you don't, I can assure you that this conversation will not be fruitful. :bloodofox: (talk) 19:28, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

It is OR but he has a point regarding why Norse has j- . In Denmark we tend to solve it by saying that jul comes from *hwehwla "wheel" and not from jewhla "yule".User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 06:34, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

Just found the real explanation (I asked indo-europeanist Guus Kroonen and this is what he said): When jeu-/jew- did loose the j- but eu-/ew- subsequently evolved into ju- again. *jeuló is a "Verner variant" of *jeuhla-, jf. OE géohhol. This in turn comes from PIE *Hieu-kʷlo- "age-turn", based on the root *kʷelh₁- 'to turn', which is also part of *kʷe-kʷlo- *wheel.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 17:44, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

Yule in Rome

@Greenshootuk: I reverted your recent removal, as your edit summary appears to have claims at odds with the Pope_Julius_I article. Do you think that article in error? — xaosflux ^Talk 05:07, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

@Bloodofox:, saw your revert, thanks for the summary information; I have not researched if that section is or is not supported, primarily had issue with the prior edit summary being out of alignment with the reference. — xaosflux ^Talk 05:53, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

Yıl

Turkish word "yıl" (IPA: /jəl/) means "year" and it was first recorded in 8th century Orkhon inscriptions. The inscription reads "men tokuz yigirmi yıl şad olurtım" (I ruled for 29 years as the prince). The word "yıl" has similar forms in other Turkic languages and Mongolian (cıl). I wonder if there is an etymological relationship between the words "yıl" and "yule".--Abuk SABUK (talk) 18:18, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

Unlikely, since yule likely comes from an indo-european word *Hieu-kʷlo meaning "age turn".User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 18:25, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

• Still the term "age turn" doesn't seem like a far cry from the word "year". Perhaps the Turkic word has an older Indo-European root. Thanks. (Abuk Sabuk) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.10.254.220 (talk) 10:16, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

References

Common Germanic *jeχʷla-

I haven't read about a proposed Common Germanic word like *jeχʷla-

But if this is the true, it should be mentioned that modern Finnish juhla is pronounced the same way (except for the first vowel). Finnish has a lot of Germanic loan words.

juhla means "feast, celebration" which is mentioned further down in the section as possible meaning.

89.15.238.25 (talk) 19:38, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

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On the Etymology part, should the New Norse word "jol" be with Old Norse, Icelandic and Faroese?

What's more correct? Old Norse, Icelandic, and Faroese jól; Danish, Swedish, and Norwegian jul, jol and ýlir. or Old Norse, Icelandic, Faroese and New Norse jól; Danish, Swedish, and Norwegian jul and ýlir.

I'm wondering because in New Norse it's written "jol" but in Old Norse, Icelandic and Faroese it's written "jól". I think it should be with Old Norse, Icelandic and Faroese because both "jól" and "jol" is written with an o. The only differnce is the apostrophe.

Is it possible to change the list to this?: Old Norse, Icelandic, Faroese and New Norse jól and jol; Danish, Swedish, and Norwegian jul and ýlir. --EilivUH (talk) 17:32, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

Technically, there is no such thing as a division between "New Norse" and "Norwegian". There are the two standards for written Norwegian, "nynorsk" and "bokmål". Further, as "ó" is considered a spearate letter from "o" in Icelandic ortography, "jol" and "jól" are not more alike than "jol" and "jul".

Andejons (talk) 06:29, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

Time

in my family, we celebrate Yule from December 11th and until January 6th — Preceding unsigned comment added by 118.171.218.9 (talk) 15:53, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

Scope - relationship with Christmas

An issue I think that remains on the page is we need to better explain the blurred line between Christmas and Yule in Northern Europe and the continuity between heathen and Christian practice. Yule isn't exclusively a heathen celebration now, being also a word commonly used in parts of the world for the Christian celebration. I'll have a think about how best to present this but I'm keen to hear the thoughts of others too :) Ingwina (talk) 15:02, 26 March 2023 (UTC)

I agree, if there are enough sources, a section could be dedicated to it. TylerBurden (talk) 15:03, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Uncited claim: incorporation of Yule into Christmas during Christianisation

The lead section states "Yule was incorporated into Christmas during the Christianisation of the Germanic peoples". This claim is debated, see this article. Therefore I added the "Citation needed" tag. Unfortunately this was reverted by @Bloodofox with the message "The word "Yule" is used in contemporary English language discussions of Christmas, which is alone is enough for this claim, as discussed in the body". I think he refers to the section "Significance and connection to other events" (first paragraph). Here however is only stated that some Christmas traditions "possibly have connections to pre-Christian Yule customs". These 'possible connections' do not support the 'incorporation during Christianisation' claim in the lead section in my opinion. The claim should be removed completely. Do you agree? Johan van der Slikke (talk) 22:13, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

First, the blog you link to above from a claccisist is irrelevant ("the Kiwi Hellenist"). Second, the fact that the word yule and its cognates are used as a synonym for Christmas to this day in many Germanic language-speaking regions is more than enough to back this claim. If nothing else, yule was absorbed into what we today also call Christmas. :bloodofox: (talk) 23:59, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for taking the time to reply. I studied some more on the subject and I agree with you. The word "incorporation" sounded to me as if it claims some present-day Christmas customs and traditions originate from Yule, which is debated by the blog post. But the word "incorporation" doesn't necessarily make this claim. The last sentence of the lead section states correctly: "some present-day Christmas customs and traditions such as [...] may have connections to older pagan Yule traditions.". Johan van der Slikke (talk) 20:42, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

This page is wholly incorrect & should be replaced/ deleted

Hello, The date today, is 7 Jan 2024. My name is Sharon. I am a 70 year old Pagan. Not a Neo-pagan, or any other such metamorphosis. I am a Fornnordisk Hedniskhet. It is a Scandinavian term, which means Old Norse Pagan. And, I am here to tell you that this wiki-page is an insult to Pagans around the world, and an insult to the true meaning and heart of the Yule celebration.

Throughout my lifetime, I have watched as christians have repeatedly attempted to incorporate our Pagan celebrations into their own beliefs. They can NOT be incorporated, as christians would mislead you to believe. Our Pagan Festivals, predate christianity by several thousand years, and have nothing to do with christianity, at all. They never have, and never will. If any person tells you otherwise, then they are either christian, or it was related to them by some other means of christianity. No self-respecting Pagan would ever say/ do such a disgraceful thing.

Yule predates christianity by thousands of years. And, contrary to what christianity would have you believe, it did NOT originate in Germany, or any Germanic country. Yule originate in Scandinavia in several thousand BCE. Yule is NOT a celebration of christmas, or any other christian holiday. "Yule" is, and always has been, the celebration of the "Winter Solstice". That, will never change. And it is still celebrated today throughout the Scandinavian countries. It cannot be incorporated (stolen) by any non-pagan entity.

This page is wholly incorrect, as Wiki should know from all the many objection of it's contents. It should either be replaced with factual knowledge of the origins and meanings of Yule, or it should be deleted. Randallratzancestry (talk) 00:12, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Please go ahead and provide your reliable sources and proposed changes to the page, and these can be discussed. Or proceed to make the changes yourself, ensuring to cite those sources appropriately. This rant isn't going to help anything get accomplished, and Wikipedia is not a soapbox. Also, to say you are a "Pagan [...] Not a Neo-pagan" is a bit strange, since the word "Pagan" itself originates from Christians, being a term meaning "country folk" which they used to describe those who followed various disparate polytheistic pre-christian belief systems in Europe. There are no "Pagans" today, only Neo-pagans (or "Contemporary Pagans", if you prefer). To say that Yule was incorporated into Christmas is a historical fact, so I'm not sure why you are contesting that. Yes, the relatively recent Neopagan movement has reclaimed Yule as a holiday for itself, but Yule was historically incorporated into Christmas when polytheistic European populations were wholly Christianized. Also, Yule is has not "always" been a celebration of the Winter Solstice, as the evidence shows it used to be timed in the January/February timeframe and was moved to the winter solstice to, ironically, coincide with Christmas by Haakon the Good (see here for more information).— Crumpled Fire • contribs • 00:36, 7 January 2024 (UTC)