Talk:Alois Hitler

Jew

So he was either a massmurdering jew or a person who despised the jews power and influence in politics, propaganda etc in the Weimar republic and other countries? Wait, why did we let him lose? Enjoy the IP 98.128.228.38 (talk)Deeksauce — Preceding undated comment added 12:26, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

Hitler

Why does the article refer to him as Hitler from the very beginning, if he wasn't called Hitler until events described in the middle of the article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.71.89.124 (talk) 22:07, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Also, calling him "Hitler" might cause confusion with the other (in)famous fellow who bares that name. Is there some reason for not refering to him as "Alois" (or "Schicklgruber")? -- Big Brother 1984 (talk) 20:42, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Questions

What did Alois Hitler die from? --Marcus2 21:33, 26 Jun 2004 (UTC)

• A pleural hemorrhage. I have done a massive style and syntax cleanup on this article, along with adding a few salient details. Wyss 04:31, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Did Alois Hitler really marry his own half-sister's daughter? — JIP | Talk 11:41, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

No, he didn't marry a niece. Klara (mother of Adolf Hitler) was a cousin, grandaughter of either his father or uncle. In the context of that time and place this was not at all unusual and in truth wonted.

You likely have this confused with his son Adolf's relationship with Geli Raubal, who indeed was Adolf's half-sister Angela's daughter. This sort of relationship was a bit close but still fairly normal for people of AH's socio-economic background at the time. Wyss 12:24, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

No, I was going by the family tree at the end of the Adolf Hitler article. It claims that Alois was the illegitimate son of Klara's grandfather, Johann Hiedler/Hüttler. Anyway how can Klara be Alois's cousin is she's his uncle's granddaughter? As for Geili Raubel, I've not even heard of her. — JIP | Talk 13:33, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

In the Catholic church marriages are allowed in the fourth degree of the collateral line. This would be first cousins, once removed. I believe the reason the priest sent it to Rome is because it was possible Klara might be Alois' step-niece. Traumatic (talk) 16:20, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

A "grand-niece" would be a cousin. Anyway they were all related in multiple ways (in truth, we all are, but the relationships in that small village were particularly close and familial). Alois was born out of wedlock but his father was almost certainly one of the Heidler brothers and his birth was later "legitimized" as such by the parish, which is how AH was legally born a "Hitler." See Geli Raubal for more about her. Wyss 14:57, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

Many articles about Hitler's relatives claim a possibility of Klara being Alois's half-niece. But I suppose the exact truth will never be known. — JIP | Talk 15:30, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

There seems to be a lot of shocked disbelief by tender readers who can't believe the possibility that someone married his own niece, or step-niece, or step-grandniece etc. Fact is there have been many accepted forms of coupling that may not seem right to us but which, through circumstance or policy, were accepted at the time. As a matter of fact an episode of 30 Rock deals with Liz Lemon dating her second cousin once removed or some such - which is well within even consanguinity tables. Imagine yourself in the remoter Alps in the nineteenth century and ask yourself whether you would prefer to live a long lonely life - or you could marry your niece? which would you choose? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.144.77.165 (talk) 16:28, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

Living descendants?

Are there any direct descendants of Alois Hitler alive today? From what I've seen on Wikipedia, none of Adolf Hitler, Paula Hitler or Geli Raubal ever had children, and Alois Hitler Jr.'s only son William Patrick Hitler had four children, one of which died when he was young. The other three have vowed never to have children. Does this mean that when they die, there will be no Hitlers left in the world? — JIP | Talk 15:30, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

"Officially" yes, the last I heard the only remnant of AH's childhood family was living in New Jersey USA (including two or three sons of WPH, who was AH's nephew) and one way or another the family has taken public steps to wipe out their line. Wyss 19:27, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

In reply to JIP and Wyss above, I'd like to mention that the Wiki article on Alois alludes early on to the Thekla (sp?) possibility of another illegitimate child. Now, obviously, that kid would not be a descendant of Adolf (which, let's admit, is the ONLY reason for any interest in this otherwise obscure Austrian peasant family) but it/he/she indeed could be a direct descendant of Alois. Thus, the Heidler/Hitler line is not necessarily dead.

As an aside, I recently got a family tree about my own maternal great-grandmother's line. It noted that it only followed the family name - in other words, a man may have had other children, but only the ones that lead directly to me were noted in prior generations. Thus, I suspect there may be others who are 'attached' to the Hitler line but don't even know it....just food for thought...Engr105th 23:33, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

The story about William Patrick Hitler's children refusing to have children is an urban legend. Why would they, anyway? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.241.83.99 (talk) 15:10, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Thelka or Thekla?

Was the woman (whose last name is unknown) really called "Thelka"? "Thekla" was a common name then, Thelka I have never heard before. -- Aleph4 11:00, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

It's widely recorded and documented as Thelka. That said, since nobody knows anything else about this person (even her last name), it's reasonable to assume it was long-ago mis-spelled by some clerk or historian. However, since we should follow the documented record (and not get into the murky waters of original research by correcting something we think might be an ancient typo... without any support other than reasonable speculation), I'd leave it be... perhaps a parenthetical note on the question would be ok though. Wyss 11:24, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

Where is their documentation of Alois having a mistress named Thelka or even Thekla? Stirling7 (talk) 20:10, 25 March 2016 (UTC)

Thelka is a Russian prank word (might be a coincidence). Materialscientist (talk) 23:06, 25 March 2016 (UTC)

Turns out her name was Thekla. Harry Schulze-Wilde wrote a letter to Der Spiegel (No. 33, 1967) where he mentions her name. Also has a picture of Alois grandson Fritz Rammer.Stirling7 (talk) 03:10, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

Alois sex life and parentage

Given his subsequent behaviour, it seems unlikely that Alois reached his mid-twenties before discovering sex. Therefore it seems likely that Adolf may have had other half-brothers and sisters apart from Thekla/Thelka's child. Is there any indication that anyone came forward claiming to be a half-sibling during Adolf's rise to power? If so, what became of them?

Also, how strictly was the ban on Jews enforced prior to 1860? I expect there were illegal immigrants them as there are today. Could a wealthy tobacco merchant (Frankenburger) have bribed officials to ignore his presence?

TCH. Hastings. UK.

Good points...its entirely possible, in fact likely, that Jews were coming into the area prior to Austria officially allowing them to, if it was attractive to them...otherwise, why would they bother after it was legal?

And its very likely Alois had un-ackowledged offspring, but equally likely we'll never know for sure...Engr105th 23:34, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Alois' religious views

"Closely related to his support of education was his tolerant skepticism concerning religion. He looked upon religion as a series of conventions and as a crutch for human weakness, but, like most of his neighbors, he insisted that the women of his household fulfill all religious obligations. He restricted his own participation to donning his uniform to take his proper place in festivals and processions. As he grew older Alois shifted from relative passivity in his attitude toward the power and influence of the institutional Church to a firm opposition to "clericalism," especially when the position of the Church came into conflict with his views on education." - Smith, Bradley F. Adolf Hitler: His Family, Childhood and Youth Hoover Institute, 1967 p.27 -- [[User:Drogo Underburrow|Drogo Underburrow]] 05:26, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Picture

Can anyone please delete this pic???? a shame it is online, to see a real picture of alois hitler see german entry on him--85.180.30.212 13:39, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm trying to locate the German entry picture you mention, but could you provide a link?? I see no reason an authentic picture/photo shouldn't be on Wikipedia...????...Engr105th 23:40, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

The caption reads née. It should be né. He was a man, not a woman. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:647:4680:EE80:E9AA:F801:43FC:5219 (talk) 07:37, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

Tone of article?

Some parts of this article read like passages in a bad novel, not like an ecyclopedia. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.15.63.111 (talk) 03:12, 11 February 2007 (UTC).

Cite one or two examples? Gwen Gale 03:14, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Hippopotamus whip?

This edit, added nearly a year ago, says that Alois would beat young Adolf with a hippopotamus whip. Really? bd2412 T 23:24, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Ok, well I've deleted reference to the hippopotamus whip, as it makes no sense. Cheers! bd2412 T 14:21, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

OTOH, sjambok documents that hippopotamus whips existed, used by European settlers on local workers in Africa. Alois might have come across an example or two at work. knoodelhed 07:47, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

There do appear to be references goin back to the mid 1970s which state that Alois beat Adolf with a hippopotamus whip. See John Toland, Adolf Hitler (1976), p. 9. bd2412 T 17:45, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Icke's books

This article lists two books by David Icke as "additional sources". Exactly what content in this article is derived from Icke's books, if any? (This is a great example of why all facts in an article should be directly cited to their source.) Everyking 07:49, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Also, there is a source listed called Hitler was a British Agent. I really can't see how such sources could possibly be useful to this article. Everyking 07:52, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

name origin

• Schicklgruber means sump digger in the Waldviertel dialect.

Couldnt be less true. The name means exactly what it brings to mind, the grubbing of shekels, or moneygrubbing. Also, there is no Waldviertel specific dialect of Austrian German. References to this on Google only occur on spammer clones of this exact Wikipedia page. This claim is laughably false. --Truthseeq (talk) 21:33, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

death section reference to a novel

The second paragraph seems to be a candidate for deletion. It doesn't add any value to the article. Any objections? 208.58.197.133 (talk) 02:58, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Last Name

The article mixes Schicklgruber and Hitler when referring to him. According to the article, he wasn't named Hitler until 1876, when he was 39. I think the article should refer to him as Schicklgruber when speaking of events before 1876, and Hitler after, instead of randomly mixing the two. Rm999 (talk) 06:30, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Rothschild nonsense

WP:UNDUE states:

" Articles that compare views should not give minority views as much or as detailed a description as more popular views, and will generally not include tiny-minority views at all. For example, the article on the Earth does not mention modern support for the Flat Earth concept, a view of a distinct minority."

The previous version of the Article incorrectly stated that historians discuss four possible fathers for Alois Hitler. While the Frankenberger version is at least discussed (and dismissed), no serious historian takes the Rothschild idea seriously. Accordingly, I have deleted it from the article.--Goodmorningworld (talk) 15:18, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

It always makes me uneasy to see material removed because it is "nonsense". If it is nonsense then include the reference to back it up BUT DO NOT REMOVE. Especially since the Rothschild theory was well referenced.--Michael C. Price ^talk 23:21, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Read WP:UNDUE again. Also what I wrote above.--Goodmorningworld (talk) 10:47, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

The Rothschild theory is notable.--Michael C. Price ^talk 14:41, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

The article does not state that the Rotschild theory is a minority view and dismissed by most serious historians. Could you please reference it? After doing so, please feel free to revert my edits on both pages. Joyson Noel (talk) 15:45, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

As a compromise I could see myself agreeing to the inclusion of the one paragraph from Salomon Mayer Rothschild that I consider (barely) acceptable there. If you agree then go ahead and perform the requisite work. Otherwise this is going to Dispute Resolution.--Goodmorningworld (talk) 15:55, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Dude, i'm not bargaining with you. So far, you are the only person claiming that the Rotschild theory is a minority view and dismissed by most serious historians. All i have asked you to do is reference it. When you do that, revert my edit. If that's not possible for you, then you have no business deleting it in the first place. Thats my point. I'm not trying to harass you or edit war with you.Joyson Noel (talk) 16:00, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Well said, Joyson. I'm glad to see that some people understand Wikipedia. Even if the Rothschild theory is currently a minority view that is still no reason for deleting it. It has been widely discussed and investigated in the past and should still be covered -- if only to dismiss it. Not mentioning it at all is not acceptable -- and will lead to it being endlessly reintroduced into the article. --Michael C. Price ^talk 16:36, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

The burden of justifying why something should be included is on the editor who wants to include it. That means, not me. The sources mentioned for the "Salomon Mayer Rothschild paternity", as Joyson Noel concedes in the first paragraph of his insertion to Salomon Mayer Rothschild, are dubious. Again, see above what WP:UNDUE says about about including tiny-minority views. It could end right here and go straight to Dispute Resolution. I really am not required to do or say more; I could restore my deletions and send this matter straight to Dispute Resolution right now.
However, as a courtesy to you both and without prejudice to any future arguments, I have open in front of me now Ian Kershaw's acclaimed Hitler biography.
The topic is, why did Alois change his name from Hitler to Schickelgruber, and it leads into discussion of who fathered Alois Hitler. (Emphasis – bolded words – added by me.)
"Only three possible explanations are to be taken into account. The first two merely concern the question whether there was a minor, covert scandal in the Hiedler family. The third possibility, which historically could have gained some significance, can be dismissed in light of the evidence." (p.33)
There follow 31 lines on the possible paternity of Johann Georg Hiedler, and Kershaw sees it as likely but no conclusive proof.
Also likely is the paternity of Nepomuk, which Kershaw discusses for more than a whole page (44 lines altogether), (pages 34-35).
"Finally there is a third hypothesis [and pay attention here: it isn't Rothschild]. According to this A.H. had a Jewish grandfather. Such rumors were rife in Munich's cafés already during the early 1920s, and they were later fueled by foreign tabloids during the 1930s. The newspapers claimed that the name Hüttler was Jewish, they 'revealed' that it went back to a Jewish family named Hitler in Bucarest, and they even wrote that Hitler's father was the child of Baron Rothschild, in whose house Hitler's grandmother allegedly spent some time as a maid." (p.35) Total space allotted by Kershaw to the "Rothschild hypothesis": two lines. Here Kershaw references, among other sources, the acclaimed book Hitler's Vienna: Apprenticeship of a Dictator, by Brigitte Hamann.
I have the Hamann book in front of me also and Kershaw's reference checks out, Hamann discusses the matter at length and in great detail and concludes that there is not the slightest evidence of any Jewish family relationship (Hitler's Vienna, p.77 of German paperback edition).
Kershaw continues: "To be taken more seriously are speculations about Hitler's putative Jewish background that surfaced after the war and stem directly from the memoirs of leading Nazi lawyer and governor-general of Poland Hans Frank, who dictated them in Nuremberg jail before his execution." (p.35)
Altogether Kershaw then devotes a total 58 lines to the Frankenberger hypothesis. He concludes: "Hans Frank's memoirs, dictated in the shadow of the gallows and under clear psychological stress, are replete with inaccuracies and to be taken with caution. When it comes to the story of Hitler's alleged grandfather they are worthless. Hitler's grandfather, whoever he may have been, was no Jew from Graz." (p.36)
Kershaw wraps it up: "Hence Johann Georg Hiedler and Johann Nepomuk Hiedler (or Hüttler) are the only two who might have been Hitler's grandfather." (p.36)
(All page numbers refer to the German edition of Kershaw's book. The quotes are not verbatim quotes but back-translated from German.)
I also have in front of me the book Hitler und seine Deutschen by Christian Graf von Krockow (2001), he also dismisses the Frankenberger claim (p. 12) and never mentions anything about Rothschild.
I also have in front of me Hans Frank: Hitlers Kronjurist und General-Gouverneur by Dieter Schenk (2006); nothing about Rothschild (of course). But since this is a monograph on Hans Frank and not Adolf Hitler, Schenk took more time to go over the "Frankenberger" claim, and what he found is interesting. "While Frank came to the conclusion that Frankenberger was falsely cited as the father by [Hitler's] grandmother who was then eking out a meager living and that he wanted to avoid the scandal of a paternity suit, nonetheless Frank considers it not altogether impossible that Hitler might have been a 'quarter-Jew' according to then parlance. However, he qualifies this: 'From his entire demeanor, the fact that Adolf Hitler had no Jewish blood coursing through his veins seems so clearly evident that nothing more need be said on this.'" (p.65) Well how about that! Finally someone takes the trouble to read what Frank actually wrote, and it's not at all like the previously recycled quotes-of-quotes. (I remind you that the Frankenberger claim has been independently proven false for other reasons by reputable historians.)
Okay guys, I could go on. But no one is paying me for this. I am removing everything about Rothschild from the Alois Hitler and Maria Schicklgruber articles. If anyone wants to to have the briefest mention about it, then you may copy and paste the first paragraph (with the proper qualification of the sources as "dubious") from the Salomon Mayer Rothschild article as it was before I started on it yesterday. I am being very generous here; I have a good case for keeping it out altogether.--Goodmorningworld (talk) 16:44, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

You're not listening: the burden of evidence you require has already been supplied in the simple statement that the Rothschild theory is notable and therefore should be mentioned. Please restore the material and include your sources for the negative assessment in the article.--Michael C. Price ^talk 19:25, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

This has come up at Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard‎... I'm sorry, but "the simple statement that the Rothschild theory is notable" does not satisfy the burden of evidence. If a theory is indeed notable, then there will be more than a few reliable sources that will substantiate that notability. See: WP:FRINGE. In this case, there is ample evidence to show that the Rothschild theory has been discredited. The most it deserves is a brief mention... a single sentence to say that it has been discredited. More than that is indeed giving the theory Undue Weight. Blueboar (talk) 13:20, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

How does the statement (really a claim) that the Rothschild theory is notable actually make it notable? Doug Weller (talk) 14:37, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't -- obviously. Neither does it refute it. It's notability is due to discussion by authorities such as Walter Langer in his wartime OSS report who points out that its importance relates to the fact, for example, that Hitler and other Nazis may have believed in the Rothschild theory, even if we don't today. --Michael C. Price ^talk 18:14, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

I hope I'm being helpful here. It may be useful to know that Michael Price is still subject to a one-year editing restriction here. He is supposed to be limited to one revert per article per week and to discuss every change on the article talk page first. Cheers. Ovadyah (talk) 20:30, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

The last sentence is incorrect -- but it'll soon be academic anyway. --Michael C. Price ^talk 13:51, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

I stand corrected. He is to discuss every revert on the article talk page first. Clearly, MP's recidivist behavior shows he learned nothing over the past year about undue weight and using Wikipedia as a soapbox for propagating fringe theories. Admins John Carter and Dbachmann are familiar with previous episodes of inappropriate behavior. They can help you out if needed, or you can take it directly to Arbcom. Cheers. :0) Ovadyah (talk) 14:55, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Ovadyah, my dear chum, I really thought you might have moved on in the last year. But, if you think I'm pushing a fringe theory here, you're the one who hasn't learnt anything.

To return to the substantive issues, I see no one has addressed the notability of the Rothschild theory, as originally raised in print by Walter Langer. --Michael C. Price ^talk 16:33, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, he did stick to the letter of the ruling by complaining here first before he made the revert.

For the record, even without the Rothschild nonsense, this Article is still a mess. Best thing would be to blank it and then translate de:Alois Hitler from the German Wikipedia, where it is in good shape. But who has the time?--Goodmorningworld (talk) 15:45, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Will you people stop bickering like a bunch of five-year-olds? The point of this discussion is to determine whether Rothschild was really Hitler's maternal grandfather, not to continue past rivalries and edit wars. For a long time now, I have been wanting to know if it is actually true that Rothschild was Hitler's maternal grandfather, but I don't think I'm going to find out if people are at each other's throats rather than having a civil discussion. Now that we have that settled, I would like the pro-Rothschild-is-Hitler's-maternal-grandfather side to present all sources that they think are credible to support their argument, while the opposing side of the argument determines their credibility and present sources that refute their argument. --Cff12345 (talk) 02:44, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

I have read the source,Inside the Gestapo,by Hansjurgen Koehler,and it is clearly an anti German propaganda piece.The reason why Walter Langer,whose book I have also read,even mentions it is because Fritz Thyssen,who I believe is Hansjurgen Koehler,told him about it.Inside the Gestapo is full of historical errors and stories which are simply ridiculous.For example,he claims in the intro that Germany was starving in 1939.Germany was a very wealthy and well fed nation.The claim comes from a chapter in the book where he is said to have been given the mission of retrieving documents from the Austrian chancellor,Schuschnigg,which proves Hitler's Rothschild lineage as well as the fact that Hitler was not actually awarded the Iron Cross during the War but after it.Hitler did receive the Iron Cross in 1916 and nobody can question that.The entire book is romanticized nonsense.The intro even offers the line"Parts of this book may read like a cheap thriller."That is the most true statement made by the fictitious Koehler.I made a Youtube vid about it under the user name dsglop. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.191.236.24 (talk) 22:43, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Seconded 82.35.171.226 (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 11:23, 6 January 2009 (UTC).

Y-Chromosome study

I removed this section from the article:

Today it has been proven that Frankenberger was in fact not the natural father of Alois Hitler. With a technique depending upon the Y-chromosome, scientist can see the paternal line of someone. The Y-chromosome is always given from father upon son. The last official (sure) descendants of William Patrick Hitler, living in Long Island, U.S.A., have been tested on their Y-chromosome and it has been proven that they descend from the Hiedler (or his brother Hüttler) line. This makes that the story that Hitler descended from Jewish blood untrue. Marc Vermeeren. De jeugd van Adolf Hitler 1889-1907 en zijn familie en voorouders. Uitgeverij Aspekt. Soesterberg, 2007.

I hesitated for a long time before doing this, because it does give a source; but I just find it implausible that something like this was conclusively proven two years ago, yet this fact has not been reported anywhere other than in one Dutch-language source and on Wikipedia. (The section would also, if kept, have needed considerable editing for style.) Googling for 'Hitler Frankenberger' brings up thousands of hits reporting the suggestion that Hitler was descended from Frankenberger. Googling 'Hitler y-chromosome Frankenberger' (or Hitler y-chromosome Heidler; Hitler y-chromosome Huttler; Hitler y-chromosome grandfather or anything similar) brings up no relevant hits, that I could see, other than those that directly quote this article (and one forum post in Dutch that I couldn't read). This information has already started spreading across the internet in copies of this article; I'd rather have more and more verifiable sources than this before staking Wikipedia's reputation on it. TSP (talk) 21:26, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Deletion is not the answer. --Michael C. Price ^talk 09:55, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

Can someone provide the exact quote from the source given that states this? And verify that it is in fact a reliable source? Who carried out the y-chromosome study? Is there any explanation for why this study seems to have received little or no attention from other publications? TSP (talk) 19:49, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

Maybe ask on nl-wikipedia? Of course, the same question could be asked of many references cited in WP articles. I once posted on a Wikiproject offering to visit local libraries to check up on references. I got exactly… zero takers, I guess my mistake was using the word "book".--Goodmorningworld (talk) 21:49, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

Of course we might also ask why the Y chromosomal study appeared in the Frankenberger section; seems most relevant to the Hiedler-was-really-the-father-all-along theory. (Assuming it is verified, of course). --Michael C. Price ^talk 22:17, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

Indeed we might. The original phrasing was decidedly on the polemic side. If indeed a study exists proving that Hitler descended from one of the brothers (is that even scientifically possible?) it would seem much more logical to add it by their entries than in the section not relating to them.

Looking back, the section was added a couple of weeks ago by an anonymous IP editor with no talk page or other edits (though apparently with good command of how Wikipedia referencing works) so there is no ability to ask them for confirmation. I remain of the opinion that this material should be left out until verified. TSP (talk) 23:32, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

Okay, I'm persuaded. --Michael C. Price ^talk 08:09, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

Frankenberger section grossly disproportionate

The rumor about a Frankenberger paternity is sufficiently notable for inclusion in the article. However, it is discredited: the best scholars do not give it any credence. The section needs to be trimmed down so that it does not overweight the sections on Hiedler and Hüttler, one of whom was Alois' father.--Goodmorningworld (talk) 14:58, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

Even if it is discredited factually that is no reason for trimming it down. Legend is often more interesting than reality, and it is certainly something people want to read about.--Michael C. Price ^talk 15:26, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

See WP:UNDUE. It will be cut but I don't have the time to embark on it today.--Goodmorningworld (talk) 15:59, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

Frankenberger also was listed as Alois' father in the person infobox. I changhed that to J G Hiedler. As he is the one oficcially recorded as Alois' father, I feel he should be the one listed here, even if the circumstances around this recording is a bit weird. Other possibly fathers should be mentioned in the text. Jarroy (talk) 18:09, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Spelling

"Matzelsberger" and "Matzelberger" are both used.

Merge

This individual is notable for a single event; namely, being Adolf Hitler's father. Per Wikipedia guidelines at WP:N, shouldn't this article be merged with Adolf Hitler? Why does this article not exist as a simple redirect? Alois is unfamous; unlike his son who is infamous. fr33kman ^-simpleWP- 01:20, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Adolf Hitler is already too long, so how could Alois be merged into it? For that matter, Alois is too long because there is so much crap in it (see Talk:Alois Hitler#Frankenberger section grossly disproportionate.)--Goodmorningworld (talk) 07:26, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Death

The name of the inn was "Gasthaus Wiesinger" not "Gasthaus Stiefler". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.235.180.95 (talk) 22:01, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Leopold Frankenberger

This article doesn't really make this clear - but is there any evidence that this Leopold Frankenberger even existed? All Hallow's Wraith (talk) 20:15, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

No, there is no evidence that this "Leopold Frankenberger ever existed. It appears to have been something that Frank made up. --A.S. Brown (talk) 02:10, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

Well, if there's no evidence it seemed a little weird to introduce him as a paternity candidate with the moniker "a Jew named Leopold Frankenberger", alongside two actual, documented, human begins. We may as well have written "an Episcopalian named Winstead Brush". All Hallow's Wraith (talk) 07:45, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

Hans Frank, under whose eyes the gas-chambers killed millions of Jews, is anything but a trustworthy witness in general terms. This does of course not mean that everything he ever told was a lie. I have often wondered where Hitler´s violent anti-semitism came from. As a young man he seems to have rubbed shoulders with other Jews. Also, the German and Austrian varieties of anti-semitism were not different from those in other parts of Europe, rather milder. Germany never had anything like a Dreyfus-Affair. In the German Reich under Kaiser Wilhelm II (himself a verbal anti-semite) Jews were able to rise to high positions in science and industry. Daniel Goldhagen´s book Hitler´s Willing Executors, in which he claimed that the Germans elected Hitler to execute the holocaust has not been taken seriously. Moreover he did not provide any evidene for this thesis.

The driving force behind the holocaust seems to have been Hitler himself. Even Himmler wanted to deport the European Jews to Madagascar, and Goering is known to have protected a number of Jews via his half-brother, and had a half-Jew in his bodyguard. One of Goering´s air marshals, Erhard Milch, was half-Jewish. The question of a possible half-Jewish grandfather of Hitler´s may never be resolved. Hitler had ample time and opportunity to destroy any evidence. There may have been open or clandestine anti-semitism in parts of the German and Austrian population, but no one ever had seriously advocated the mass murder of ethnic Jews. So the question remains: what is the background of Hitler´s anti-semitism? One explanation was given in a US book on who financed Hitler´s rise to power. (Who financed Hitler: The secret funding of Hitler's rise to power, 1919-1933, by James Pool, 1978) One source seems to have been Henry Ford, a violent anti-semite, whose painted portrait adorned Hitler´s Reichskanzlei. On January 30 1939 Hitler stated in the Reichstag: "Wenn es dem internationalen Finanzjudentum inner- und ausserhalb Europas gelingen sollte, die Voelker noch einmal in einen Weltkrieg zu stuerzen, dann wird das Ergebnis nicht die Bolschewisierung der Erde und damit der Sieg des Judentums sein, sondern die Vernichtung der juedischen Rasse in Europa!" (My translation: Should international financial Jewry succeed again - within and without Europe - to plunge the nations into another world war, then the result will not be the bolshevisation of the earth und thus the victory of Jewry, but the destruction/extinction of the Jewish race in Europe) One of the many mysterious and absurd statements which demonstrate that Hitler was insane. There is no evidence whatsoever that Jews were involved in the outbreak of World War I. But Henry Ford claimed to have secret knowledge of this, whose origin he never revealed. This is the only relevant source I know which might explain Hitler´s anti-semitism. There is no evidence either that US president Woodrow Wilson, who declared war on Germany in 1917, was Jewish. The Versailles Treaty was one of the cornerstones of Nazi politics. The two most violent anti-German agitators in Versailles, French Clemenceau and British Lloyd George, were not Jewish either. Lloyd George even visited Hitler in his mountain retreat and called him a great man, after having imposed a humiliating "peace" treaty on Germany without which there would not have been a Reichkanzler Hitler. There must be one or several mysterious and hitherto unknown sources to explain Hitler´s radical anti-semitism. Rumors that he had a Jewish ancestor may be one. But the evidence is scanty - and all potential witnesses are dead. The only clear indication is that he did not look particularly nordic - (jokes about this were made in the German population) Ontologix (talk) 05:44, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

Lack of neutral POV

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Patrick_Stuart-Houston#In_Nazi_Germany

I dont think he's a reliable source about the story of Alois beating her wife and children. And neither is the book author.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_G._L._Waite - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_G._L._Waite#Psychohistory

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Psychopathic_God:_Adolf_Hitler#Jewish_ancestry

In http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alois_Hitler#Marriage_to_Klara_P.C3.B6lzl_and_family_life

William Patrick Hitler says that he had heard from his father, Alois Jr, that Alois Hitler, Sr. used to beat his children." - The Mind of Adolf Hitler",Walter C. Langer, New York 1972 p.115

So his nephew was an anti-nazi british spy, hardly unbiased POV

And Robert G.L. Waite is saying that Hitler behave like he behave because of his fear to be jewish.

Also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychobiography — Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.137.113.70 (talk) 00:26, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

Education: It says Alois Attended elementary school this may not be true is there any evidence to support this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mordecai-and-the-rigbys (talk • contribs) 08:59, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

What a question Every child in Austria was required to attend elementary school. What are you trying to hint at? Ontologix (talk) 06:41, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Poor prose

Frank's story contains several inaccuracies and contradictions, such as he said "The fact that Adolf Hitler had no Jewish blood in his veins, had, from what has been his whole manner so blatant that it needs no further word",[19] also the statement Frank had said that Maria Schicklgruber came from "Leonding near Linz", when in fact she came from the hamlet of Strones, near the village of Döllersheim.[20] Rosenbaum suggests that Frank, who though he had turned against Nazism after 1945 remained an anti-Semitic fanatic, made the claim that Hitler had Jewish ancestry as a way of proving that Hitler was a Jew and not an Aryan.[21]

This is a bad piece of writing. Can anyone knowing the facts (or allegations) behind this section redo it in good English? Koro Neil (talk) 03:02, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Alois' Death

In the paragraph discussing the death of Alois, this paragraph comes up: "Hitler's childhood friend, August Kubizek, wrote in 'The Young Hitler I Knew" that "When the fourteen-year-old (sic) son saw his dead father he burst out into uncontrollable weeping.'" But, Kubizek did not meet Hitler until, according to his own account, around All Saints Day in 1904, and Alois died on January 3, 1903. Am I simply missing something here, or is there an error? — Preceding unsigned comment added by McelHuff (talk • contribs) 01:31, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

haplogroup again

Reverted as the info. being put forth to add is poorly sourced and not complete. Here you have surmise, at best, on a matter where the physical evidence is not totally clear (and even then can be interpreted differently). It doesn't meet WP:VERIFY. It has been discussed and rejected several times in the TALK:Adolf Hitler archives. As someone stated years ago when first discussed, "...there's no definitive evidence of anything - only one DNA test that apparently showed Hitler (or his relatives, who presumably don't share his exact DNA) had genes that a whole batch of ethnic groups have."

• See Talk:Adolf Hitler/Archive 51 [1] (three times):
  • Talk:Adolf Hitler/Archive 51#Just write what the sources say
  • Talk:Adolf Hitler/Archive 51#Adolf Hitler's Y DNA haplogroup
  • Talk:Adolf Hitler/Archive 51#Hitler's DNA
• Talk:Adolf Hitler/Archive 52 [2]
• Talk:Adolf Hitler/Archive 54 [3]

Kierzek (talk) 17:56, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

Sic

"When the fourteen-year-old [sic] son saw his dead father he burst out into uncontrollable weeping."

Why is [sic] included here? I can see nothing wrong with the sentence. KarstenO (talk) 14:56, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

From the previous sentence: "Adolf Hitler, who was 13 when his father died...." TSP (talk) 16:08, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

Under Early Life

I removed Alois from the first sentence. This isn't bad writing. --Malerooster (talk) 01:23, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

I think it's a problem actually. See my comment in the section below for details. El_C 01:35, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

@Malerooster: You've said "It isn't bad writing" a number of times now in different venues: on my tlak page, in an edit summary, and here. Do you actually have an argument which supports your contention that the sentence is better without "Alois", or one which knocks down my argument that using "Alois" in that situation helps the reader? You really can't just repeat the same thing over and over again. Make an argument please. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:31, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

Please read MOS:SURNAME and MOS:SAMESURNAME. --Malerooster (talk) 17:04, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

Use of first name throughout bio

Related to above, should we be using Alois instead of Hitler throughout the bio? It seems the reader would know that this is Alois' article. If Adolf is mentioned in a certain section, then we could make clear which Hitler we were referring to. --Malerooster (talk) 01:28, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

Indeed. Take for example the following excerpt from the article: Werner Maser suggests that Alois's father was Johann Nepomuk, Georg's brother and Hitler's step-uncle, who raised Alois through adolescence and later willed him a considerable portion of his life savings, but never admitted publicly to being his real father. But I disagree with you that Hitler by itself ought to be directed to anyone other than Adolf Hitler. All other mentions of Alois or any other individuals with the last name Hitler, should be qualified accordingly. El_C 01:35, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

In other words, for Adolf Hitler: Hitler by itself, or Adolf Hitler, or just plain Adolf. Everyone else with the last name Hitler can be named in full or by their first name only, whichever. I think that approach makes most sense. El_C 01:41, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

Obviously, I agree that we should use what are basixcally disambiguating first names in some circumstances in this article. The name "Hitler", unadorned with a first name, is pretty firmly ensconced in our culture as meaning "Adolf Hitler", because that's what it means 99.99999....% of the time. Anything we can do to help the reader from falling into this cognitive trap is a service to them, and makes the article easier to read.

However, I do not think that it needs to be a hard-and-fast rule. The best thing is to read through the article, and in any place which a scintilla of doubt entered your mind about who is being referred to, add the first name there. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:26, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

I've gone through the article and made what I believe are common sense changes to help the reader avoid the "Hitler" mental trap. I'm not necessarily married to them all, and am open to reasonable discussion, although I think that deleting them en masse would not be justified. (There are also other normal copyedits included in the edits.) Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:21, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

Ok, looks good. The first mention under Early life is fine with just Hitler. Everybody with a brain/cognitive ability knows what article this is, right? --Malerooster (talk) 16:56, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

I agree with the practical approach and application put forth by Beyond My Ken. Kierzek (talk) 12:11, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

Vandalism

Oh dear. Is this "punished him severely" vandalism? I recall the phrase came from that youtube series. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.99.126.230 (talk) 05:52, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Joachim Fest's opinion about Alois Hitler's father

There is a paragraph in the article at the moment which reads:

Historian Werner Maser suggests that Alois's natural father was not Johann Georg Hiedler, but rather Johann Nepomuk Hiedler who raised Alois through adolescence, and later willed him a considerable portion of his life savings, although Johann Nepomuk Hiedler never admitted publicly to being Alois's natural father. According to Maser, Nepomuk was a married farmer who had an affair with Maria Schicklgruber, and then arranged to have his single brother Johann Georg Hiedler marry Alois's mother Maria to provide a cover for Nepomuk's desire to assist and care for Alois, without upsetting Nepomuk's wife.[6] If the theory is true, then Alois' third wife Klara was also Alois' half-niece, however Adolf Hitler biographer Joachim Fest thinks the theory is too contrived and unlikely to be true.

@Beyond My Ken: Hi, the last bit is what you added into the article. But, according to Joachim Fest's biography Hitler:

That same year she turned her son over to her husband's brother, Johann Nepomuk Huttler, a Spital farmer-presumably because she thought she could not raise the child properly. At any rate the Hiedlers, the story has it, were so impoverished that "ultimately they did not even have a bed left and slept in a cattle trough.

All the other theories about Hitler's grandfather are also full of holes, although some ambitious combinational ingenuity has gone into the version that traces Alois Shicklgruber's paternity "with a degree of probability bordering on absolute certainty" to Johann Nepomuk Huttler. Both arguments peter out in the obscurity of confused relationships marked by meanness, dullness, and rustic bigotry. The long and short of it is that Adolf Hitler did not know who his grandfather was.

— Joachim Fest, Hitler, page 15.

Where do you get the idea that Joachim Fest disagreed with Werner Maser?--OZZY19455 (talk) 19:35, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

I did not add the text about Fest disagreeing with Maser. Since it is unsourced, it can be removed. Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:35, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

But, actually, if you read the quote from Fest's Hitler that you cited, he does disagree with Maser. Documents say Hitler's grandfather was X, Maser says Hitler's grandfather might have been Y, Fest says - basically - there's no way to determine which is correct, which means that he disagrees with Maser's hypothesis. Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:41, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

I've altered the text to reflect the Fest quote above. I suspect that the "too contrived" text was an attempt by someone to categorize Fest's statement, but not done all that well. Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:55, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Fest seems to contradict himself a couple of pages later, "Like the Hiedlers or Huttlers, she came from Spital; and after his chage of name she was his niece, at least legally, so that a dispentation from the church had to be obtained for them to marry". (p. 17). He was wrong. They were legally first cousins once removed.--OZZY19455 (talk) 16:24, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Why?

"Alois was "awfully rough" with his wife Klara and "hardly ever spoke a word to her at home". Alois treated his children with similar contempt and often beat them."

Why would you put something like this in the guy's introduction page? Is this the wikipedia editor revenge because his son was Adolf Hitler? What kind of nonsense is this?

This should be in the introduction of the page, all the other stuff is just to frame the guy as an evil demon:

"Alois Hitler (born Alois Schicklgruber; 7 June 1837 – 3 January 1903) was an Austrian civil servant in the customs service, and the father of Adolf Hitler, dictator of Germany from 1933 to 1945." 109.131.60.100 (talk) 15:42, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

Otto's birth

All records of Otto can be updated, because the birth records of Braunau am Inn have been digitised and he really was born 17 Jun 1892 and died 23 Jun 1892. The baptism/birth record is available here for free on the third line: https://data.matricula-online.eu/cs/oesterreich/oberoesterreich/braunau-am-inn/106%252F1892/?pg=10, although it is obviously a primary source. The German Wikipedia has already changed its details. Also here is Adolf's birth record if it would be of interest: https://data.matricula-online.eu/cs/oesterreich/oberoesterreich/braunau-am-inn/103%252F03/?pg=176

212.79.110.148 (talk) 18:26, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

References

 Not done for now: Thank you for your contribution, but unfortunately we're not really supposed to analyse such primary sources. I suggest seeking consensus for such a change. In the meantime, I will also ping ToBeFree (an admin who's also familiar with the German Wikipedia) . Best, M.Bitton (talk) 19:04, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the ping; I think M.Bitton has summarized WP:PSTS correctly above. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 19:15, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

Contradiction in marriage dates

Hi all. In the biography section listing his wives, it says he married Franciska (sp?) in 1883. However, in I believe the second paragraph under the bio breakdown, it says he was already married to her in 1876, when the bio says he was still married to Anna. Is this just an error, are the dates uncertain, or did I misread? 75.162.20.229 (talk) 02:28, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

• I've corrected the text in the lede. Here is the timeline according to this article:
  • 1873 - Alois marries Anna
  • soon after - starts affair with Fanni
  • 1870s - numerous affairs
  • 1876 - hires Klara, begins affair with her
  • between 1876 and 1880 - sends Klara away per Fanni's wishes
  • 1880 - he and Anna separate, remain married
  • 1882 - Fanni gives birth to illegitimate son Alois
  • April 1883 - Anna dies
  • May 1883 - marries Fanni, son Alois legitimized
  • mid-1884 - Klara returns to care for ill Fanni
  • August 1884 - Fanni dies
  • January 1885 - marries Klara
  • May 1885 - Klara has first child, Gustav
  • April 1889 - Adolf born

Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:41, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

• Maybe a timeline such as this should be added to the article. (With sources, of course.) Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:43, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

Inside the Gestapo

Shouldn't we mention in this article that the hypothesis that Alois Hitler was fathered by a Jewish man surnamed Frankenberger is also published in the 1940 book Inside the Gestapo? 173.88.246.138 (talk) 04:48, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

"Hitler had E1b1b DNA haplogroup"

Is this phrase, which is found in the current version of this article, grammatical? It seems rather awkward and non-standard.

"Hitler had E1b1b DNA haplogroup"

173.88.246.138 (talk) 05:01, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Fixed (I hope.) Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:49, 26 July 2023 (UTC)