Talk:Power metal

the sub-genres of Power Metal...

This article is a mess. What shall "Power-Thrash Metal" be? Did you ever hear of Speed Metal? This is a mixture of Power and Thrash, "Power-Thrash doesn't exist. There are in fact also no genres called "Folk-power metal" or "Extreme power metal". I think the article was written by guys who had no idea about power metal and propably never listened to power metal songs... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.246.190.241 (talk) 09:44, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Maybe you think like that, but if there are bands claiming to be that we should keep them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.87.19.106 (talk) 03:38, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Proper categorization, when it comes to modern rock and metal music, to some extent does not exist. The genres are developing everyday. Any band could release a new record today and label themselves as "folk power" or "extreme power", and who are we to stop them from doing so? That being said, the metal community generally agree, that those genres that the OP mentioned, really don't exist. For example, Iced Earth are a power metal band with thrash elements in their sound, but that doesn't automatically create a new sub-genre. You can call them power metal, you can call them thrash metal, but don't call them power-thrash metal, because that term isn't generally accepted. BTW, Speed metal is NOT a combination of power and thrash at all. Speed metal is actually NEITHER power NOR thrash. So the OP is wrong regarding this.Pagen HD (talk) 09:21, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Power metal & Progressive metal

Power metal and progressive metal cross over so much how do we seperate them? I heard progressive metal has more keyboard then power metal but whats other differences?

- Very easily. most power metal bands are not prgressive metal bands, and vice vrsa. while there are similarities, they nevertheless remain two distinctive genres - 15:18, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

-Very Much Agreed - Progressive Metal is generally softer and more techinically sound than power 16:05, 4-7-2007

Prog is a very broad term, but it's generally stuff that deviates from normal song structures (intro-verse-chorus-verse) etc, contains a wide variety of influences and styles, high technicality and a degree of experimentation. It's definitely a seperate genre from Power Metal, and they don't cross over as much as you'd think. There are admitedly a few well known Power bands with some Prog influences, such as Angra, Kamelot and Sonata Arctica, but when you compare those bands to traditionally recognised Prog bands like Dream Theater, Pain Of Salvation, Yes, later Fates Warning etc they are clearly very distinct from each other. Most standard Power bands tend to stick to rigid song structures with very little in the way of experimentation or alternate styles on display. 82.41.101.178 23:47, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

The only difference I see is that Power metal is usually faster than Progressive metal. Other than that they are extremely similar. Jonasbrotherareterrible (talk) 12:29, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Slowly diminishing popularity?

I may be far from where Power Metal scenes are (I live in Louisiana, which the only popular Metal is all the "Core" bands, Death Metal, and Black Metal. Only Power Metal bands you can buy albums in stores here are DragonForce and Nightwish) but I don't see where it's "slowly diminishing" in popularity. If you can give details to support how it is falling in popularity because I see no stopping so far. I mgiht be right or wrong, I don't know. Do provide WHERE you got this information! Mandilore

Sabaton is pretty new, and they have topped the hard rock charts in sweden, above saxon, manowar and type o negative;

That's definitly good news (especially being a huge Sabaton fan). Until more information has been provided on this because an anti-power metal person could have post that to get people to stop listening to the genre, I have deleted that part. I mean, I search high and low for that proof but nothing was adding up. I heard there was a big decline in rap, yet it still as popular now as it was before here and I hate rap!!! Stay Metal!!!

-Mandilore

Thrash influence?

I think some mention should be made of the possible (probable?) influence that thrash had on the origins of power metal. Indeed, a lot of thrash's speedier rhythms and stacatto riffs are very consistent with those found in power metal.

• I see it as power that is very speedy and thrash-like is speed/power metal(crossover)
• I don't think so, at least not for the European genre. Power metal originates with early Rainbow, which released their first album in 1975. Thrash metal comes from the late '70s or the '80s. In the origin of power metal definately not. In more modern power metal, quite likely, but classic metal groups that delved into speed metal (Judas Priest and Iron Maiden) probably brought those thrash-like elements before actual thrash started bringing in their influence. --72.138.133.124 03:16, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I'd say power metal borrowed from speed metal, not from thrash. Though it is possible that later european power bands took thrash influence, after the decline of speed metal.

Power metal was not originally influenced from thrash metal even though the two genres definately can cross into each other. Both power and thrash emerged out of speed metal in the 1980's, each taking the sound in a different direction. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.101.156.35 (talk) 00:34, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

When thrash evolved it came from NWOBHM crossed with major Hardcore Punk influences. Speed Metal and Power Metal are both basically branches of NWOBHM and are musically basically the same. NWOBHM is as it says "a new wave of" and most the early speed metal & power metal groups were just variations from that wave. When it comes to groups like Iron Maiden, Helloween, Manowar then they all sit somewhere in the middle.

Thrash metal groups have taken from the original sounds of NWOBHM, Power Metal & Speed Metal. Flotsam & Jetsam, Overkill, Forbidden, violence. Metallica even called their demo "power metal". Power metal at the time was a branch of NWOBHM.

It when groups introduce Progressive rock / metal influences into power metal & speed metal that it creates a confusion to some fans to what the root sound is. Both Speed metal & Power Metal are not genres that introduce other music influences but are just variations on NWOBHM and older basic HM.

"cheese metal"?

I've heard the label "cheese metal" used recently, and was told it referred to power metal. Is this right? If so, should it be mentioned in the article as an alternate descriptor? —αγδεε(τ) 23:57, 2004 Dec 3 (UTC)

• Power metal is generally the cheesiest of the metal genres, yes. It might merit a sentence in the article, but no more. -leigh (φθόγγος) 05:34, Dec 4, 2004 (UTC)

Power metal is not neccessarily cheese metal, listen to bands like sonata arctica and hammerfall, they are more sound than anything.

• Cheese metal sounds more like a derogatory term than an actually attempt at classification. Sort of like, I don't know, Zao "crapcore".--72.138.133.124 03:17, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
  • I agree. Cheese metal isn't a real genre. -Achates 14:22, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

• I think it is just a derogatory term for any music that metal purists deem not "heavy" enough or whatever - false metal? --merk 06:52, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

• Anyone who says that power metal is cheesy is kind of dumb. Power metal is one of the most popular heavy metal genres. Non operatic power metal draws a lot of inspiration from Rob Halford's singing style (the high male vocals are what are considered the most cheesy aspect, I would think) but no-one calls that cheesy.

Cheese are all black metal bands.

Black Metal bands arn't cheese, theyr much better than power metal, i like power metal, but i hate it when people just comment something unnesisary an a page. BLACK METAL RULES (this is my opinion)

Cheese Metal is definately a pejorative term used in relation to alot of metal groups. Generally bands that tend towards fantasy subject matter (Rhapsody, Manowar, etc) get this lable, though it is rarely ever used outside of flame-style criticism and really doesn't have a place in serious discussion about the genre. -UnitG3D

Cheese Metal is a perojative and humoristic term to laugh at bands that somewhat take their style too much seriously. I saw often been either used on power metal or black metal. Manowar and Rhapsody are extremely cheesy. Matt714 20:27, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

First of all, cheese is a mainly subjective thing. All metal has some element of cheese. Black metal corpse paint, Sabbath-worshipping doom metal bands, the whole 80s metal scene which was just a bunch of gimmicks and tropes.

Also are we just gonna forget about bands such as Blind Guardian, Iced Earth, Kamelot, X Japan, and Avantasia? Yungstirjoey666 (talk) 16:09, 5 December 2022 (UTC)

It could refer the prominent use of keyboards ala Deep Purple's "cheese organ" solos by Jon Lord. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.241.56.22 (talk) 05:47, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Note - Almost none of you seem to know what you are talking about. Yes, it is a derogatory term, and therefore has no place on wikipedia in an article. It is never applied to black metal as far as I know, but only weak power metal bands that, yes, sometimes get cheesy. It doesn't apply to all power metal, though, just some of the weaker, cheesier sounding ones, and there are quite a few. Blizzard Beast ^$ODIN$ 21:25, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Well I've also heard of "flower metal" being used as well but it's more on the terms of peaceful or metal with magical love stories which power metal sometimes uses, and that it's just mainly more uplifting than most metal genres. I think it's known as such but that term is something you wouldn't want to put into the article. −₪ÇɨгcaғucɨҲ₪ ^kaiden 04:30, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

You guys must be kidding. Some of the most respected bands (Iced Earth, Blind Guardian) are power metal bands. The term "cheese metal" is extremely biased and subjective. Don't bother.Pagen HD (talk) 09:26, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Calvaria

I just created the page Calvaria as a redirect to Tambalacoque (it is a minor alternative name for this tree) - and looking at 'what links here' brings it up as a band as well, a more significant use of the name. Anyone who knows about the band, feel free to convert Calvaria to a page about the band, the tree link isn't important - MPF 00:55, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Europe's influence on power metal is questionable...very speculative to say that their initial music influence was immense.

NPOV

I have removed the line "and just more ridiculousness in general" on the basis that it is not NPOV.

195.85.229.3 dispute

User:195.85.229.3's addition of the absurd paragraph "This style is not very popular in the world, because of the complexity and inner weight of its musical delivery, which makes an untrained, homosexual listener feel uneasy and harassed by the sheer power of Power Metal music" obscured attention from the rest of his/her edit. This editor seems to be asserting the definition of "power metal" expressed in Ladd Everitt's essay "How The Pumpkin Stole Power Metal" on [1] (scroll down; unfortunately they prohibit direct linking). I've reverted his changes, but they have some merit; I'm currently working on a compromise article. -leigh (φθόγγος) 04:55, May 10, 2005 (UTC)

-This guy needs to get his facts straight. Rob Halford is gay, and he's been a major inspiration/contributor to this genre. Plus, Power Metal is for everyone...and the phrase "power of Power Metal" is redundant. 67.62.112.215 19:02, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

-This guy above me needs to get a sense of humor. --70.184.124.111 00:49, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

What's then speed etc.?

Sorry to say, but from the bands mentioned at least half is not power metal. True's it's epic, but not fast. Only the thing there're playing with filharmonic orchestra doesn't mean, it's Power metal.

Genre is always a tricky subject. You will likely never get everyone to reach a consensus about what bands belong or not to a certain genre, so you are better off just leaving things as they are. Over at Death metal, a long edit war ensued until List of Death Metal bands was created; there people can dump the name of whatever band they think are death metal. All that is left on the main article are the bands who truly DEVELOPED the genre, bands whose influences are impossible to deny. But since there isn't even a consensus about what power metal truly is, I find it hard to use this option here. --Sn0wflake 30 June 2005 19:56 (UTC)

I agree because Power Metal is very broad. Unlike in Death Metal and Black Metal and other Metal genres, it's very easy ubt very hard to name a band "Power Metal". Power Metal bands can have anything from Standard, C, and E tuning. The vocals also vary, some even have death grunts and such because mainly the backgronud music meets majority of Power Metal elements(like Children of Bodom). Nocturnal Rite's sounds like a Metalcore band by gutiar band and half of the style but the other half is playing in a Power Metal fashion, clean vocals, epic feel, keyboards, and other essences. Majority what makes Power Metal is the guitars, vocals, and drums style(and the inclusion of keyboard and keyboard solos) but even making the drums Hardcore and the gutiars Heavy Metal with modern distortion makes that band Power Metal. SO I agree with you on that Power Metal is a tricky genre to name.

On this topic, as well, someone (mayhaps myself) should find some authoritative source that states characteristics that define power metal. Because I Disagree that power metal must be fast. Blind Guardian's "The Bards Tale- In the Forest" from their album "Somewhere far behind" is most definitely not fast or even speedy. However, I certainly have no problem in associating Blind Guardian with Power Metal. Kamelot, a USPM band, also has multiple examples of music that is definitively not fast or speed driven but is also definitively Power Metal. Not to mention, when you really think about it (and if you've litened to their other albums as well) Trans-Siberian Orchestra is a Power Metal band. So... long story short... we need an authoritative perspective on defining the characteristics. Until then perhaps more should be added to the intro to describe how there is in fact a controversy.Aramilalpha (talk) 20:34, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Rainbow

I'm removing Rainbow from the list of "examples of power metal bands" on the grounds that Rainbow have very little in common with bands normally associated with the genre (I.e. Gamma Ray, Helloween, Hammerfall, Rhapsody). To put it another way; if Rainbow should be on this list, then so should Deep Purple and Black Sabbath. And no one in their right mind would argue that Deep Purple is a power metal band. Rainbow belongs in the classic rock genre, or to a certain extent; classic metal, or even glam metal for the later period of Rainbow's existence. Lappado 13:50, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

Well I could not agree more and I just removed it again, for the second time. Neofelis Nebulosa (??? ???????????) 9 March 2006 (my sig doesn't want to work)

True, they don't have much influence on the musical part of power metal, but their lyrics were very fantasy-based, which is present in a lot of power metal. Maybe a sentence or two should be there about bands that influenced the lyrical style in power metal/

Led Zeppelin had a few songs about mythology and the Lord of the Rings... yet they are not power metal at all. Matt714 20:30, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Rainbow musically has a lot to do with power metal, keyboards, epic vocals, neo classical styled solos....they were basically one of the first power metal bands, power metal isn't just bands like Helloween --E tac 21:04, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Maybe you could call Rainbow Epic classic metal or something —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.231.185.223 (talk) 17:53, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Influences List

I recommend adding a small section of 'Influences / Instigators' [or something along those lines] at the bottom of the list of power metal bands

You could add Maiden, Priest and anyone else who has had a big influence on the genre. I'm not a big fan of power metal but I do think it would be a good addition to this article :)

~Mal

List Of Power Metal Bands

I think it might be a good idea to make a new List of Power Metal bands page for a list of ALL power metal bands, and have the list on this page changed to just a list of key artists, like on the Death metal page. Also, I agree with the idea for the influences list. (maybe I just like lists...) --Eel 02:34, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

I'd agree, and am looking at doing something similar with the Iron Maiden page ("Band That Have Covered Iron Maiden") and also some of the larger discographies. IainP (talk) 13:22, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Influence

Rainbow may have something, that was taken from them to Power Metal, (I think mostly, it split into DIO and Blackmore's Night, with booth have epic themes), but they are definetly not Power Metal themself... BTW Deep Purple count as inventors of Speed Metal, which is the style, from which Power progressed... So, my opinion is, that Power got direct influence from Rainbow, Deep Purple, as was said and is stated in the article - Judas Priest and Iron Maiden... DIO is primary more an influence, or a-very-predecceccor of this style... I think someone should add the "influence list" and transfer before-Helloween bands there... I could try, but now am too busy.

I think Manowar probably deserves a mention on the powermetal page. -Achates 14:25, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Remove?

I think the following could be removed after the second comma. The stuff about Hansi isn't really needed in an encyclopedia article and the part about Kai singing again contradicts the point of the importance of singing in power metal. I agree that the singer *is* important in power metal (the most famous bands are fronted by singers with a distinct style e.g. Helloween, Blind Guardian, Savatage, Nevermore (if one considers their later work power metal). However singers who don't double as instrumentalists aren't a distinct feature of power metal alone. I think singers/instrumnetalists are usually found in death/black groups unless my mind does not really serve right now ;) Not to mention the drummer singer King Fowley

"Because of the primary importance of vocals in power metal, vocalists generally do not double as guitarists as in other styles of metal, which is why Hansi K?rsch stepped down as bassist for Blind Guardian after their album "The Forgotten Tales"; Hansi said that he wanted to focus on enhancing his vocals both in and out of the studio. This is also the case as to why Kai Hansen recruited Michael Kiske for Helloween after Kai himself sang on the first two Helloween albums. When Kai formed Gamma Ray with Ralf Scheepers, his singing took a back seat as Ralf fronted the band. Although, after Ralf quit the band, Kai returned to singing and currently is both the vocalist and the lead guitarist of the band."

Phoenix Reign should not be in the NYC Power Metal list

I find it to be ridiculous that the band "Phoenix Reign" is on the same list with popular bands such as Manowar and Virgin steel in the sub article "American Power Metal". As a fan of the NYC local metal scene, I can speak for the most part that Phoenix Reign does not belong on that list. They are not popular, nor signed - they are just a garage band. Obviously someone from the band put "Phoenix Reign" in there and I see them in that list as a cheap way to get their name out, and I am removing it. Also, the band "Twilight Odyssy" is also in that list, and they are not popular but definitly more known then Phoenix Reign. However, since the editor didn't even bother to attempt to make it a link and simple tossed the name in there - I'm sure someone from that band tossed that in too.

Weasel

• "power metal" generally refers to the European style
• Some consider modern American bands like (...) but others claim that the movement has ended
• Their albums Keeper of the Seven Keys, Part 1 (1987) and Keeper of the Seven Keys, Part 2 (1988) are generally regarded as a milestone of this genre.
• Fast and demanding guitar solos, however, are almost guaranteed.
• Power metal drummers generally play with two bass drums for added speed, often playing a constant stream of sixteenth notes with snare drum accents on the beat. Some bands defy this formula, but it is surprisingly universal.

I do unfortunately not have the knowledge to fix the problems myself Bryan 21:32, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

The second certainly isn't; it just states that there are two opinions, not giving any extra authority to either. 87.194.7.55 00:32, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

But you still cannot say it his way. Wikipedia requires to cite your sources, and not just saying some without further explanation. Bryan 09:07, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

dragonforce

why dragon force is mentioned in this page i have no idea. sure they are popular at the moment, but they are not a fore runner / leader in this genre.

That's why I believe they're mentioned; they're popular at the moment, so it's a good chance people may have heard of them, to provide an example for those who read the page. --Dayn 05:51, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Dragonforce is mostly speed metal, but has power metal influences: they're speed metal with the fast tempos, long, intricate and dueling guitar solos and the tendency for blast beats on the drums. However, Dragonforce also has fantasy-based lyrics in a high register, which are both power metal elements. --69.37.103.14 (talk) 02:00, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Dragonforce IS metal but they are NOT Power Metal. I think above user stated it best: they are speed metal with Power metal influences. Aramilalpha (talk) 20:37, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Yer. I agree. Dragonforce certainly aren't power metal. They are definitely speed metal. As are bands like Cacophony, Joe Stump, (early) Helloween & Sonata Artica. Real power metal is bands like Manowar, Melliah Rage, Accept's Deathrow album, Judas Priest's Painkiller album, Pantera's power metal album (though this was bordering on thrash on certain songs). Power metal is about "power". Speed metal is about "speed". The clue is in the title. How hard can it be? What is so powerful & macho about Dragonforce? Metalosaurus (talk) 13:48, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Heavy Metal?

Really, the statement that power metal is a sub-genre of heavy metal is an opinion. Wouldn't it all come from "metal" genre instead, since it's the root word of all these heavy, death, power, symphony metal bands.

"Out of heavy metal various subgenres later evolved, many of which are referred to simply as "metal". As a result, "heavy metal" now has two distinct meanings: either the genre and all of its subgenres, or the original heavy metal bands of the 1970s style sometimes dubbed "traditional metal", as exemplified by Deep Purple, Led Zeppelin, and Black Sabbath."

From the heavy metal music page. I personally just use the term "metal", but almost everyone I've met who hasn't listed to much of it at all refer to it as "heavy metal", so I believe it's interchangeable; which is what is stated on the heavy metal music page. --Dayn 05:47, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

pure Epic Metal is very different from power metal, please divide the pages —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 200.118.237.91 (talk) 16:13, 4 March 2007 (UTC).

Angra? European?

Angra is included in the erupean power metal part... But Angra is a band from Brazil!!!

but european power metal is most popular in Europe, Japan, and some countries of South America

SO?

so perhaps european is a part of name of the genre, not a place where they must come from. like with the austrian school of economy.

this is correct. It's a style, not a geographic designation. Cellador certainly sounds more like DragonForce than they sound like Kamelot, and they certainly play Euro-style128.193.238.6 02:46, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

ProgPower

I'm not really sure ProgPower should be listed. Well it is true that Power Metal and Prog Metal bands manily play there. There have been a few non Prog and Power Metal bands to play there. Two of them are Epica and After Forever.

Bands like Epica, After Forever, Visions of Atlantis, Nightwish, Elis, Krypteria etc. ARE a form of power metal. Just because they are mainly female fronted doesn't mean they aren't Power Metal. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.2.209.67 (talk) 06:49, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Simple minor empirical error?

Barlow may be naturally capable of hitting notes in the baritone scale (never heard him sing bass), but he definitely sings in the tenor range at least. If the author of that section is a little hazy on the difference between the various ranges, I'm sure a google search would serve them well. It would be wasted text in here!

Simply, I posit that Barlow works in a variety of ranges through accessing head voice for the higher material and occasionally 'vocal fry' to hit both the low notes (see Dante's Inferno) and the really really high wails (Blessed Are You, at the end of the AIA version). It's not that big a deal and I frankly don't care all that much, but it might mislead some people and it is empirically incorrect. Eg. "with the ability to hit very high notes (with the exception of former Iced Earth frontman Matt Barlow". If Barlow doesn't hit high notes, no male in the history of rock has!

Good to see his name mentioned in the article though. Seminal vocalist in power metal. Baronvongoremeat 20:20, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

I was the one who put that in there. Reason being is that majority of Power Metal vocalists sing in the tenor range while Matt Barlow sung mroe baritone/bass. I never said that Barlow couldn't hit higher notes because I've heard him hit some really high notes! It's called "falsetto", every male has one. Rather you are Bass, Baritone, Tenor, Countertenor, or whatever, every guy has a falsetto voice! I heard Joakim hit a high falsetto in "Metal Crue", so man, claim down. Like that other dude said, it's not a big deal. I may have not been the best at the editing but the comment was very unprofessional as a simple change could have been made and if I had a problem, I would say something. SO far, I agree withthe way it is written as it is but I have to say man, the way you reacted was ridiculous.

P.S., I'm in a choir, so I know all about thwe vocal ranges. -Mandilore

Barlow doesnt use falsetto (what ive heard anyway) and he doesnt sing in the bass range. His highs are in head voice. And he is more of a high but deep baritone.-Anonymous

Actually, it's called "head voice". Falsetto is a high register vocal effect with your vocal folds only touching at the very edges. Head voice has full "chord" (or fold) closure. - Anonymous — Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.124.195.82 (talk) 18:17, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Ron McGovney's coining of the term

Isn't it true that it was actually Ron McGovney who used the term Power Metal To describe metallica's early demo? I wonder why it wasn't included in the article in the origin of the term section(there is sadly no section like this...). So I just put it in the middle of a paragraph that delt with its beginning. Can anybody help with creating a section with more info on the term's origin?

http://www.metallicaworld.co.uk/Interviews/1997_ronmcgovney.htm It's about half-way down the page. He claims to have invented it and dates it the early 1982. I'm not aware of any other bands using the term 'power metal' at the time. PolarisSLBM 23:19, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Cellador

Seriously, they were speedy deleted. What a joke. They are a newer band but the fact that they were signed to a major label is a lot to say for any power metal band. I don't see how this happened without the article being tagged and discussed first. I can't believe a band who I was able to buy their album at Best Buy of all places was speedily deleted with no discussion. Perhaps somone who knows how to properley start a deletion review should do so. --E tac 22:27, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, speedy deletes don't need a review, just recreate the page. Adding more information than just a record label would help it stay around -- all past deletions have been because of non-notability. Check the music-specific section linked on the right as well, and see what you can add (Any members formerly with other bands? What is this album that they've released? Do they have an official website? Any other information on them?) to claim, and hopefully prove, the notability of Cellador. -Bbik 02:02, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

There was more info than just a record label and the article was around for quite some time. Speedy deletes don't need a review but this should not have been speedily deleted, I didn't create the article either but seriously just deleting it without any discussion is a joke, people put some time and effort into the article's creation and they at least deserves a fair chance at defending it. --E tac 07:54, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

How long it lasted doesn't mean it met notability requirements, just that no one found it earlier. If there was more in it and you felt it did meet the requirements, or have more to add to convince an admin it can/will, ask for it to be undeleted. You don't need to do a review for articles that were speedied or PROD'ed according to that link, so talk to the one who deleted it, or find another admin who undeletes articles and see what they think. If it was a mistake, it should be easy enough to undo. -Bbik 08:49, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Well I put the article up for deletion review and now it is back and currently listed as an article for deletion here Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Cellador--E tac 22:22, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

American vs European

What's the difference? I don't see any clarification of that anywhere in the article. There's a description of what European power metal is, but all the American-related parts seem to just list bands, rather than a description. If it's going to be separated like that, the two branches need to be more clearly explained. -Bbik 02:02, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree, if you are going to claim that they are different then you should back it up with facts or at least descriptions of both styles. Although I would say that European power metal is more diverse and contains many different styles like those of Grave Digger and Dragonforce. I feel that American power metal is more generic and is all based on the same ideas whereas those of Europe change as you travel the continent

Right, because Kamelot sounds EXACTLY like Iced Earth... [sarcasm] - RedFox742

Removed Symphony X as an example of European Power Metal from America in the "European/melodic power metal" section to leave only Kamelot. Symphony X are mainly a Progressive Metal band with a large melting pot of other influences, they have very little in common with European Power Metal and have only fleeting similarities to "American Power Metal", which I would argue, is far closer to classic metal than it is to it's European counterpart. A better subsititute from that side of the World would be Angra, who play a progressive tinged form of Euro Power Metal. 82.41.101.178 23:47, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. Symphony X are DEFINITELY a power metal and are much more than just, progressive metal (Neoclassical, Symphonic etc.). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.112.23.199 (talk) 20:31, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Symphony X are primarily a prog metal band with a bit of Europower and a lot of of American power/speed/thrash influence. I'd agree that they don't belong as an example of an Europower band from America. I'd say you could include Cellador as an example next to Kamelot though. Offski (talk) 10:17, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

-RE "88.112.23.199" Would you care to back that up or go into more detail? I can't see any real similarities in Michael Romeo's playing or that of the other band members with Power Metal. They play in a very syncopated and technical way and encorporate a large array of musical influences, which is totally aloof from what nearly every Power Metal band plays or sounds like. Russell Allen doesn't sound like a Power Metal vocalist, especially when he's using his low range and I haven't heard of a Power Metal band writing 20+ minute songs. The reason they are lumped into "Power Metal" is because some bright spark thought "omg, they are more melodic than Dream Theater, they must be powar metul!!1!" so they lazilly lump them into the "American Power Metal" pigeon hole, which in itself is lazy genre labelling since there's what... two maybe three bands that are actually described as "American Power Metal" which are themselves victims of lazy genre pigeon-holling. Just because people can't accept that Thrash (in Iced Earth's case) or more Traditional sounding metal are wide genre tags these days with lots of varied sounding bands. Hence i'd describe Symphony X by their main trait, progressive, with influences from neoclassical, symphonic and melodic traditional metal. 81.155.205.240 (talk) 15:46, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Where does DragonForce belong?

Under which of these sub-classifications would Britan's best-known power metal band fit? They have occasionally used the "extreme power metal" label, but here that seems to be stapled to the Children of Bodom-melodic-death-with-keyboards... very far from DF's high-pitched and epic vocals. It also seems negligent to not have them listed under at least ONE of those categories. I slid them into the "thrash-power" category--the description (high-pitched vocals and powerful guitar riffs) seemed to fit best--but anyone could, of course, change that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.117.64.254 (talk • contribs) 2007-07-13 18:29:16

They're definitely not thrash-power. Not even close! Come on, just compare them to the other bands listed. There's nothing special about them (except for the fact that they cannot even perform their songs live) so they belong to the european powerl metal genre —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.209.165.86 (talk • contribs) 2007-07-20 10:58:36

I just added them to European power because that is the only catagory they truely fit into. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.101.156.204 (talk • contribs) 2007-08-04 22:52:27

I'd say the only answer is that they fit into a number of categories; they're keyboard heavy, very fast, and have high-pitched, 'epic' vocals. Still, I'd say that they're extreme power metal. I could be wrong, but didn't the band themselves use the term when describing themselves? I'm sure that could be fact-checked somehow....66.31.174.231 05:43, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

The band calls themselves Extreme power metal, but they arn't at all. Extreme power metal is like Children of Bodom, stuff with harsh vocals and more of a death metal feel. They like to call themselves extreme because of their speed. ≈ The Haunted Angel 12:29, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

They're just straight power metal in my eyes, there's nothing extreme about them aside from their speed, which just makes them fast-paced power metal.Otisbum 02:08, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

There is a redirect to this voice if I search epic metal. Why? Aren't they two different genres? —Preceding unsigned comment added by BoreAlisAurorA (talk • contribs) 13:29, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Any band that causes this much debate might as well just not be included since we have 3 or 4 good bands for all the subgenres that no one will debate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.101.156.35 (talk) 19:54, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

I moved them from Extreme Power Metal into European Metal. They either belong in European Metal or Epic Metal but not Extreme Power Metal. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.235.112.234 (talk) 12:22, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

What do Within Temptation, Epica, and After Forever have to do with Power Metal? Until someone can tell me why I'm take that part of Symphonic metal down. Besdies it gose into a bit of that in the Symphonic Power Metal part.

They describe themselves as "Extreme Power Metal" because they have Blast-Beats in their music, which is a drum technique that is normally only found in extreme subgenres like Death and Black Metal, (if you want to know what it sounds like, youtube a few videos). If you combine that with the fact that their music is very, very over the top, I reckon the tag should stand. 81.155.205.240 (talk) 02:14, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

As I commented above: Dragonforce is SPEED metal... thats what they do: speed. They are not a power metal band (power metal is not about just how fast you can play your guitar). Also I couldn't care less how they classifiy themselves, its irrelevant. After all I describe myself as "The Greatest Sex Machine to Ever walk the Earth" but that doesn't mean I am. Aramilalpha (talk) 20:43, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Within Temptation, Epica, and After Forever haveing nothing to do with Power Metal.

What do Within Temptation, Epica, and After Forever have to do with Power Metal? Until someone can tell me why I'm take that part of Symphonic metal down. Besdies it gose into a bit of that in the Symphonic Power Metal part. Truemetalfan Oct 7th, 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Turemetalfan (talk • contribs) 23:39, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Which does bring up a good point unless that band plays Power Metal they should not be any where on the page. Turemetalfan Oct 7th, 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Turemetalfan (talk • contribs) 23:43, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

GOD DAMIT IF YOU PEOPLE ARE GOING TO LIST SYMPHONIC METAL IN ANY ARTICLE ABOUT POWER METAL THEN LIST POWER METAL BANDS. WITHIN TEMPTATION, EPICA, AFTER FOREVER, AND THEATRA OF TRAGEDY HAS JACK AND **** TO DO WITH POWER METAL AND SYMPHONIC METAL. IN FACT THEY ARE GOTHIC METAL, GOTHIC-DOOM METAL AND AT ONE POINT DEATH METAL. UNTIL PEOPLE HERE CAN UNDERSTAND THAT DO NOT PUT IT IN THE ARTICLE. IT'S ABOUT POWER METAL NOT GOTHIC METAL BANDS, NOT DEATH METAL BANDS. NOR IS IT ABOUT BANDS THAT HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH POWER METAL IE. EPICA, AFTER FOREVER, AND WITHIN TEMPTATION. GOOD DAY. Turemetalfan Oct 8th, 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Turemetalfan (talk • contribs) 00:27, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Also what they heel are Cirith Ungol, Moonsorrow, and Finntroll doing in the Article? They don't even play power metal. Heck one of them plays Black Metal. When did Black Metal=Power Metal. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.245.83.180 (talk) 00:38, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

The fact that lyrically they discuss mythology and fantasy, though not as epic. Same goes for bands like After Forever, Epica, Nightwish, Visions of Atlantis, Elis, Krypteria etc. They are just female fronted epic fantasy(for the most part) themed metal. Which STILL puts them as a sub-genre of Power Metal. When will people learn that it is the combonation of lyrics and sound that make a band power metal. Power Metal is very broad anyways. You can't just label a band in one genre. Oftentimes bands have multiple genres anyways. Therion is another good example. They can be classified as Black, Doom, Thrash in some songs and Power Metal in others. It varies, get over it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.2.209.67 (talk) 06:58, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Ian Christe's and the 'other' power metal

In Ian Christe's book Sound of the Beast: The Complete Headbanging History of Heavy Meta power metal is written in the context of American power metal. He mentions bands like Mercyful Fate, Manowar, Raven and last but not least Metallica. One could think this is totally wrong, but I think it's just a point of view that should be featured in the American/classic power metal section (backed up by sources). See this link to see a preview of Sound of the Beast.

Since some notable artists like Metallica (see an early metallica business cart [2]) and Pantera (see their album called Power Metal (album)) have been labeled power metal I think it would be fair to mention them (and others) in this article.

Any opinions? Kameejl ^(Talk) 13:47, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

So Iced Earth is influenced by Metallica that's a new one on me. --Turemetalfan 23:22, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure they were but that is not my point at all. I'm talking about the 'other' interpretation of the term power metal. The early 80s/classic/US interpretation of the term power metal. Kameejl ^(Talk) 11:10, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

The "other interpretation" that Christe uses is totally wrong, the term "power metal" was being thrown around for a few years before bands like Helloween emerged and the genre became more officially recognised but the name isn't synonymous with the bands he mentioned (other than maybe Manowar to some people). The bands he cited fit a lot better into other genres, First Wave of Black Metal / Classic, Traditional Metal, NWOBHM and Thrash metal (with a more rock orientated approach later) respectively. 82.41.101.178 (talk) 13:20, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

This article is a mess

If we are goint to list Extreme Power Metal as part of Power Metal and say it has the feel of melodic death metal/black metal then we might as well list At the Gates as any Influence. Sure At The Gates has jack to do wtih Power Metal but where do you think bands such as Children of bodom go there sound from. That's right At The Gates. Sure Nightwish and Edenbridge play power metal. Though Nightwish take no influence from most of the Power Metal bands and more from movies but hey it's ok to have Queen and Stratovarius as there influence.

This whole page is supposed to be about Power Metal and we now are listing bands that don't even play power metal on the page. Either looking into the bands and where they get there influence or stop adding bands. --Turemetalfan 23:20, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Stop adding melodic death metal bands.

First melodic death metal was started by bands such as Dark Tranquillity, At the Gates and In Flames. It was called the it was called the Gothenburg sound. These band Dark Tranquillity being the biggest one used keyboards in there music.

So really all bands such as Kalmah, Children of Bodom, and Wintersun have done is take and add in other sounds well still having the Gothenburg stalye and the fact that Children of Bodom, and Kalmah are using blast beat drums in there music which is found far more in Death metal and Black Metal then in Power Metal.

In other words stop listing melodic death metal bands as Power Metal bands. They are melodic death metal end of story. I will also add this Eternal Tears of Sorrow has nothing to do with Power Metal so way in the heck were they listed? They started off as a Gothic Metal band. Now they are playing melodic Death metal.

This Page about Power Metal is one big mess with bands that have nothing to do with Power Metal being listed as such. It needs to be fixed ASAP. --Turemetalfan 00:39, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

This arcticle should at least mention melodic death metal bands who show power metal influence even if it does not qualify as a subgenre in and of itself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.101.156.35 (talk) 00:51, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

No it shoudl not because they are still using the Gothenburg styale. In Flames, Dark Tranquillity, and At The Gates, a long with if you want to Death are the ones that made Melodic Death metal. So if you list Kalmah then your going to have to start listing them and they don't have anything to do with Power Metal at all. --Turemetalfan 21:03, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Epic Metal

I think someone from Spinefarm may have had a hand in writing that little bit about Nightwish, if you know what I mean. Centurion Ry (talk) 22:36, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree with you here. Though I like Nightwish, even seen them live, I don't think they should be glorified THAT much. They are glorified more than Helloween and Manowar(I know they are different sub-genre's, just saying in general they are spoken of more)..sacrilege if you ask me. Rhapsody should be glorified just as much as Nightwish. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.186.190.52 (talk) 00:22, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

I think Rhapsody of Fire should be named the masters of that genre after all they were epic before Nightwish were, and have ALWAYS played self proclaimed epic metal, I'm sure they used a full orchestra before Nightwish did. Dreen (talk) 18:23, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm surprised this hasn't been reverted by anyone else yet, so I'm doing it now. No band should be called the "masters" of a genre, certainly not on Wikipedia. The section that was there was more descriptive of the actual style of music and far more useful. Offski (talk) 18:43, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Sorry to point this out. Rhapsody of Fire is very very good. But between them and Nightwish well Nightwish used the full orchestra on there CD first. All you have to do is look it up. NOw if you mean live that's a different story altogether. --98.224.211.86 (talk) 15:15, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

"Extreme Power Metal"

Is totally bunk. Children of Bodom, Norther et al are pretty much melodic death metal. Melodic vocals *are* an essential part of power metal. I'll refrain from getting my grubby hands into the article, so I hope someone else can clean it up.213.113.161.54 (talk) 21:05, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. Removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Talvimiekka (talk • contribs) 15:03, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Types of power metal

The "extreme power metal" section used to have unsourced templates until I moved them, but it brings the point up that none of the sections actually are sourced. It seems to me that most, if not all of these sections are nothing short of OR. Come to think of it, the only power metal in this section I've heard of outside of Wikipedia is "epic metal", and that was very briefly. It seemed to be more of a way of describing the band rather than an actual genre. Unless this stuff is properly sourced soon, I'll be removing each section that counts as OR within about a week. ≈ The Haunted Angel 22:57, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Well I would see the problem of extreme power metal as that the bands are not playing power metal at all. As for most of the other sections. Well Nightwish for for exmaple on there first three CD were play power metal. From CC to DPP it become more Symphonic with some hints of Power Metal. Which is why it's Symphoinc Power metal. In fact most bands that in that part are doing that. They have been adding in over there past few CD's are a lot of Symphoinc sounds in some cases awhole orchestra is used. Most of the others really make no sense out side of Symphoinc Power Metal. --98.224.211.86 (talk) 15:10, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree with what you're saying, however this alone counts as original research, and we'd need to cite an actual source to keep these other genres here. ≈ The Haunted Angel 16:29, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

I would not really call it original research when a lot of the Symphonic Power Metal band as of late and even in the past have been using more and more orchestras or even small orchestras. If it was just the keyboards that would be one thing. But it's no longer just the keyboards and in most cases they are out right getting whole orchestras for there CD's. I'm just sayings is all.--98.224.211.86 (talk) 21:51, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Examples being one of the best ways to convey this, we should have them here... but we have to work out which bands are notable. One or two people can't decide alone which bands they think are worth mentioning or not. Genres and popularity are always POV, people will never agree completely, so let's not rush it by deleting stuff on the fly. --Ifrit (talk) 17:05, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Ok then who is more notable Masterplan and Dragonforce or Gamma Ray, Blind Guardian, Helloween, Hammerfall. Dragonforce has not been around long enough to be notable and they are not doing something that has not been done by others. Same with Master Plan. Same thing with Symphony X, Evergrey, Kamelot over Pagan's Mind. The exmaples should be of bands who have been playing said Genres. Well Dragonforce is big they are not as notable as Helloween, Gamma Ray, and Blind Guardian. --Turemetalfan (talk) 23:52, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Best thing would be if we could find a reputable site to cite regarding subgenres and which bands belong to them. --Ifrit (talk) 10:34, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

your forgetting....

how can you mention Power Metal without DragonForce? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.167.135.71 (talk) 07:33, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

That's actually a very good question. I'll probably find some excuse to add them somewhere now.Centurion Ry (talk) 10:22, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Many people, me included, don't concider Dragonforce genuine power metal. Their music has been called Shred Metal for a while now.--Ifrit (talk) 09:43, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

But in wikipedia we don't care what you think. According to most realiable sources Dragonforce is just typical power metal. And the term Shred metal does NOT exist.

DragonForce is never the best example of power metal. DragonForce play with a unique style of power metal so I don't think it would be good to use as an example of standard power metal. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.195.117.108 (talk) 20:43, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Uhm, actually it does. Neo-classical metal is another name for it. But I don't think Dragonforce are that, either. They are just really really weak power metal with quite technical guitar playing. Blizzard Beast ^$ODIN$ 21:22, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

I'd say that, if anything, they almost have a pop sheen, like some 80s music, but their ties to power metal really are undeniable. Still, the only reason they seem this important is because they really popularized the genre, especially here in the US, where, you can go years without meeting someone who's heard of Helloween or Nightwish. 66.31.174.231 (talk) 00:54, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Have any of you listened to them? They're speed metal. Clearly and beyond a doubt. They play technical guitar really fast. Thats what they do. Aramilalpha (talk) 20:46, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Epic metal?

Why does epic metal redirect to power metal? Epic metal =/= power metal. Epic metal refers to any metal band which creates an epic or grandiose soundscape through it's music. Furthermore, this type of sound is especially prevalent in doom metal and viking metal, not power metal. So why does epic metal redirect to this article? Can someone fix this please? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.167.41.58 (talk) 18:54, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

There was originally a section about epic metal here but it got deleted and it's article was deleted too so it was made as a redirect to here. We could do the same thing as punk metal and provide a brief description and list genres that are common for their epic themes. −₪ÇɨгcaғucɨҲ₪ ^kaiden 07:33, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

• Last.fm has convincing definition: see Epic metal. They describe epic metal as a genre defined by lyrics (just as christan metal) rather than by music characteristics.--Garret Beaumain (talk) 15:33, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
• Epic bullshit is removed from article. Do not post it here again. There's no genre like "epic metal". American and European parts just deal with differences in terms between continents. Garret Beaumain (talk) 17:04, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

What else is needed?

The article is listed as requiring expansion, so what else do people need to know? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.81.36.61 (talk) 14:58, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps how Power metal is often combined with Progressive, Symphonic and Neo Classical sub genres? Well usually more than other genres (though they do exist)... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.195.161.104 (talk) 06:04, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

the magazine

There's a power metal magazine. A disambiguation for that should exist... ClintJCL (talk) 18:46, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Is there even article for said magazine? Dab might not be necessary given the more prominent links at the top of the article. Wisdom89 _{(T / ^C)} 08:03, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Story of Power Metal

I decided to remove this section for now. I categorically object to this section being added to the article without proper formatting, tone, grammar and citations. Yes, most of the time things gradually improve, but in it's previous state it was pretty unacceptable for an encyclopedia entry. If any editors object to this removal, feel free to respond or be bold and reintroduce it. However, I implore a heavy heavy clean up first. Wisdom89 _{(T / ^C)} 02:13, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Here's a great idea

Let's remove the vandalism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.169.251.190 (talk) 15:39, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

OK, another idea, why don't we search Power Metal in another language in wikipedia, then translate it in Google and see wich one of all the articles of Power Metal is the best of all written in Wikipedia, then correct the Google/Translator mistakes so it will be correct english grammar & stuff and just stay with that... I mean in the end it's all from Wikipedia, from what we all over the world had edited..

Fernando1432 from YouTube Users... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.156.32.204 (talk) 03:17, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Most of what is what is being called "Power Metal" isn't power metal but is "Melodic Metal"

Power metal is groups like Agent Steel and Pantera (post glam era). Groups like Helloween were and always will be melodic metal/ speed metal. The whole point to power metal is it is "powerful!!" not melodic (or epic as someone above has said). This is why there is so much confusion in the discussions. Power metal is a type of speed metal that is supposed to be full of "Power". Look on the official Helloween website and you will see that even they call themselves as "Melodic Metal". This was always the case and it still is.

http://www.helloween.org/band.html

The only thing that draws similar between power metal and melodic metal is the vocal tone is similar. Other than that melodic metal is "melodic" and tends to sounds cleaner or softer and often uses keyboards. Melodic metal very often crosses into the realms of progressive metal etc.

As for groups like Dragonforce being power metal then they again are melodic metal. They are hardly a group displaying "power". Sure they are filled with talent and skill but that is not the meaning of "power". How come that the Pantera "Power Metal" album isn't mentioned?

Power metal is what some are now calling "speed metal". Both power metal and thrash metal have often been referred to as speed metal on various compilation albums because they are obviously played fast.

Metalosaurus (talk) 18:56, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

• Did you ever heard of thrash metal and groove metal? That what Pantera actually plays. You're not fluent in music taxonomy at all. Calling your album "Power metal" does not make you to invent the genre of the same name. There are albums Battle Metal, Love Metal, Death Metal (split by Helloween and Running Wild), Dark Metal, Gore Metal and Space Metal and they stand for nothing but titles. And your most ridiculous claim is that "Power metal is for bands that display power" - any metal bands "displays power", but "Power metal" genre name simply comes from "power chord". You should learn something about music genres, if you did, you would not posted such stuff. I recommend you a book like A To Z of Power Metal by Garry Sharpe-Young to clean off your delusions.Garret Beaumain (talk) 04:57, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Forget the books. I am talking about mass opinion of fans at the time. Pantera weren't trying to invent a label as they were just going with what everyone knew at the time. No one criticized them at the time as this is what power metal was. Power metal was an era that soon lead to thrash metal. In fact early thrash bands such as Metallica even called themselves as power metal (such as power metal demo) prior to them refining their sound and journalists / fans inventing the "thrash metal" label (if you listen to many of the first thrash demos you will noticed many hadn't actually refined to the thrash sound heard on their first album release). The Pantera "power metal" album was not them inventing a new term but was them making a statement that they had changed from Glam to "power metal". Sure the album verged on being thrash metal on certain parts of songs but this didn't make it thrash as thrash is different and it had the guitar tempo and the vocal style that made it power metal. When they released Cowboys From Hell they were thrash metal. As thousands of fans jumped onto the Pantera bandwagon journalists coming up with the "groove" title. Pantera then tried to market themselves under the silly "power groove" title say they were a power metal / groove metal crossover. Power Metal started from a Manowar, Judas Priest and Armored Saint style through to Meliah Rage (on certain songs), Agent Steel, Rage (on certain songs), Pantera (post glam) etc. If you go by modern books then it is just various journalists putting their own conclusion on what they think. Usually they contradict each other depending on time, era or biasness. Often the journalist aren't even old enough to remember but are writing second hand information from a handful of people at the time. They are no better than a band who market themselves as something they aren't. At least bands are actively making the music. Without the bands the journalists are nothing. It is the bands and the fans that make the music scene. The journalist just sell books that often contradict each other.

The problem today is that there are a whole load of younger fans jumping onto and shouting about a newer scene that is based on something they don't even remember. I was there when power metal was groups like Pantera's "power metal" album and it isn't just my opinion as it was obviously Pantera's opinion as well. They like me was there at the time. Groups like Helloween were always categorized as "speed metal" and later as "melodic metal". Speed metal at the time was also a genre that often included thrash metal and power metal bands. Most of this so called power metal scene of today has grown off the back of a European speed metal / power metal / melodic metal fan base that thinks it is all power metal. Power metal was originally an American NWOBHM / speed metal triggered genre that younger European fans have misinterpreted. Metalosaurus (talk) 07:40, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

• Forget fan opinions. You're in Wikipedia. Wikipedia is based on reliable sources, that are: books, scholar articles, media at the least. Fans' opinions have no relation to Wikipedia, especially when they are not even recorded but only expressed verbally.Garret Beaumain (talk) 13:11, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Then can you please provide me some sources from back during the 80s where it actually lists power metal other than the Metallica demo and the Pantera album of that name? Back then power metal was Judas Priest (Ram It Down, Painkiller) or certain Manowar songs through to Agent Steel or Pantera (power metal). If you start searching you will find I am right. Why else would Pantera call their album "power metal"?

• After the same reason other bands called their albums Battle Metal, Love Metal, Death Metal, Dark Metal, Gore Metal and Space Metal, regardless of is there any metal at all. (Guess, what sort of music contains album called just Metal?) Album names are just names. By your own logic, Helloween and Running Wild were considered Death metal bands, as they released an album called Death Metal.Garret Beaumain (talk) 21:04, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

The big difference is when the album of various bands by the name of death metal came out, there was no death metal in existence. No one even remotely considered the bands as being death metal. The death metal genre came much later and grew of the back of thrash metal before becoming a separate and unique scene. When Pantera released the album "power metal" they actually called themselves power metal as did fans and journalists. Look it up and find material or interviews written or recorded at the time and you will see I am right. You will also see that Judas Priest were the main influence for power metal on their "Ram It Down" and "Painkiller" albums. Helloween was accepted by everyone I ever knew of as being just speed metal. I'd hardly compare albums like death metal to being the same example as Pantera's power metal album as there was nobody who even remotely considered death metal as a genre at the time of the death metal release. Power metal however was a completely different case.

Metalosaurus (talk) 07:57, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

How is it that both Helloween & Sonata Artica use reference to being melodic yet neither remotely give mention of "power"?

"The band's trademark sound of fast, melodic and keyboard oriented heavy metal with clear and high vocals was born"

http://www.sonataarctica.info/site07/index.php?s=4&l=uk

Sonata Artica used to refer to themselves as speed metal when they first started out. Helloween always was known as being speed metal. To be accurately descriptive then they are melodic speed metal. Metalosaurus (talk) 20:51, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Melodic Metal

I have just looked on Dragonforces official website and they also give reference to "melodic metal". So now thats Helloween, Sonata Arctica & Dragonforce who when refer to themselves they say "Melodic". Never has there ever been a reference to power metal. Obviously Helloween and Sonata Arctica have given previous reference to speed metal and Joe Stump's speed metal messiah is of the same sound. Hellween was always called speed metal back in the 80's & 90's. Never power metal. Power metal was and still is groups like Judas Priest (starting from "Ram it Down" album), some Manowar, some Armored Saint and Pantera ("Power Metal" album).

Melodic metal is like progressive metal, Neo-classical & symphonic metal as they are all metal variations on rock genres. They are also all connected musically.

Metalosaurus (talk) 12:47, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

The term "originated from Pantera's album"?

Says who? If anyone has any reliable sources for claiming that any particular usage of this term derives from Pantera's '88 album, please cite and link them. The term itself is quite a bit older - both Metallica and Venom were using it to describe their music as early as '82.... in fact, a whole section devoted to the history of the term would be very nice, but this completely arbitrary statement in the opening paragraph has to go. 79.177.199.88 (talk) 00:31, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

Power metal was originally bands that were America's answer to the "new wave of British heavy metal". It started with bands like Manowar and originally included the early thrash bands prior to thrash becoming a genre in its own right. Bands from Europe such as Accept & Judas Priest's Painkiller were also seen as being power metal. When Pantera released their "power Metal" album they were making a statement that they had dropped the glam in favour of what was at the time known as power metal. The genre was already in use prior to the album being released. This is also how Metallica got the name for their demo of the same name. What has changed is the meaning of power metal and the bands now being listed as it. Metalosaurus (talk) 16:55, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

I agree.Duelistgamer (talk) 20:11, 21 May 2013 (IST)

Musical Characteristics

Is anyone up for rewriting this to reflect the distinction between European and American power metal mentioned in the section below? The two are fairly different, and this section seems to only refer to the European style.

Also, some sources would be nice. The "instrumentation" section has none at all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.255.240.199 (talk) 01:51, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

Why is X Japan mentioned in this page...?

I see no valid reason to include X Japan as a Power Metal act... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.81.90.38 (talk) 02:28, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

X Japan is a Visual Kei band. The Visual Kei movement in Japan shares similarities with Power Metal. Also, a good majority of songs by X Japan could be categorized as Power Metal. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.82.95.236 (talk) 08:36, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

X japan isn't a visual kei bands but now that we are on the subject i thought why is there European and american power metal sections but not a Japanese one? japan has one of the biggest music industries in the world and power metal is very popular in japan —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.202.252.82 (talk) 16:20, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

X Japan (as far as I can remember) predates Visual Kei, but was a great influence. Also, as it has been said before European and American are not geographical restrictions, they're style descriptions. Japan's Power Metal generally aligns with European Power metal. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.81.65.138 (talk) 16:46, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Some stylistic considerations

"Thor's contributions have gone largely ignored for over three decades, but the style and sound is indeed there if you research it."

Does anyone besides myself find this sentence to be somewhat galling? Not that I contest the actual message of the sentence, mind you--I readily acknowledge his contributions to the genre. Rather, the specific wording of the sentence is what I find contentious, in particular regard to 'there if you research it'. Constructs like that seem to clash with the encyclopedic prose so frequently employed in articles upon this site--it addresses the reader specifically, which almost constitutes a form of 4th-wall breaching. Should not our content be wholly based upon an indifferent, unbiased summarization of the topic, as opposed to being predicated upon the predilections of the readers/writers? Additionally, This sentence assumes something about its reader: Ignorance. Granted, it doesn't assume this for all readers, but it does assume something for every reader, even if it is different on a case-by-case basis. The article should not be concerned with the relative level of vetted research on the behalf of the reader--it should simply assert as fact, rather than enjoining its audience to bolster its allegations for it. A simple citation would suffice, as opposed to the addition of this sentence. To summarize, I feel the sentence is redundant--and perhaps even deleterious. I argue for its removal--or, at the very least, its alteration. I invite you to reply, as I would like to attain a general consensus (or dismissal) of this proposition before actually enacting it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ghost Lourde (talk • contribs) 21:16, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

Japanese Scene

The largely neoclassical Japanese power metal scene should be mentioned somewhere. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.49.181.128 (talk) 02:51, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

Good idea, you should add something about it. Got any good references? Maybe from Neoclassical metal? Vortiene (talk) 15:48, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

Galneryus, Versailles, and of course, let's not forget X Japan, a very important band in Japanese rock and visual kei. Japanese power metal is practically its own scene, and deserves some mentioning in the page. Yungstirjoey666 (talk) 16:04, 5 December 2022 (UTC)

For proof, the Metal Archives records that out of the roughly 2,800 Japanese bands, roughly 23.5% of bands belong in the power metal genre, which is higher than most other countries.

https://www.metal-archives.com/search/advanced/searching/bands?bandName=&genre=power&country=JP&yearCreationFrom=&yearCreationTo=&bandNotes=&status=&themes=&location=&bandLabelName=#bands Yungstirjoey666 (talk) 00:16, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

Let's just be honest

In the early 80s the term "power metal" was a really vague and subjective descriptor that some people used to distinguish badass bands from lighter ones. From the late 80s onward the term has been used to denote a particular genre of epic, fast, melodic metal that had emerged, especially from Helloween's "Keeper of the Seven Keys" albums. (And yes, Dragonforce is part of that genre, regardless of how stale we might find them.)

The problem with terms like "American power metal" and "USPM" for early 80s bands is: >Genre: The bands so-labled were fairly diverse. Insofar as they were similar, it was because they were playing typical heavy metal (and speed metal) of the NWOBHM era's milieu. They weren't pioneering anything particularly new, genre-wise. >Location: Some of them weren't even American! Hell, Judas Priest (England) and Accept (Germany) were dubbed power metal in this era, since they were hard-edged non-glam bands.

So, sure, the term was already in use in the early 80s, and was used differently than how we use it now... but that's because the term didn't designate a genre in the early 80s, while with "European power metal" it does.

Compare this to "black metal", which used to just mean "satanic metal", and had nothing to do with genre (as is evident from Mercyful Fate's inclusion in the near-mythical "First Wave"). While from the early 90s onward "black metal" has referred to a specific sound. A satanic band with a different sound would not be considered black metal nowadays, while a non-satanic band who has the right sound would (cf. Immortal).

My personal opinion is that bands like Manowar and Judas Priest should only get a brief mention in this article in a section that discusses the early history of the term, while discussion of power metal as an actual *genre* should focus on the style pioneered by Helloween's late 80s work, and similar bands. I feel like this would account for all the relevant facts, and shouldn't be too controversial. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 104.218.24.11 (talk) 16:12, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

The general idea of Power Metal in the current age, regardless of how it developed originally, is that USPM and EUPM are two separate styles within the "power metal" umbrella. Similar to how early bands playing heavy metal were not called heavy metal until someone coined the term, USPM bands were not called USPM until years after, it was a term created to differentiate between the Helloween-pioneered style and the 80s US power metal scene style. Both styles are notable in some way and hence both discussed within the article. USPM Developed a bit in the early 80s, but mostly in the mid-late 80s, before crashing in the early 90s. It still exists, however just not as common due to lack of popularity. It's obvious nowadays power metal typically is used to describe EUPM because EUPM is the more widely prevalent of the two styles. However, this does not discount the existence and continuation of bands still labelled USPM, and the existence of the other, less popular style, in general. The term USPM is still used to describe a large set of bands. Hence it's notable to discuss within the article for clarity and understanding of readers. Vortiene (talk) 20:04, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

My main point was that the bands who were [incosistently] dubbed "power metal" in the US in the 80s were indistinguishible from other contemporary bands who *weren't* so-labled.

Early Metallica is power metal, but Megadeth isn't? Manowar is power metal, but Dio isn't? Pantera's album between their glam phase and their thrash/groove phase is power metal, just because they named their album such?

All evidence points to "power metal" having originally merely been a term used by fans to denote which bands they thought were legit (akin to calling a band "real metal", or something). As far as I can tell, it didn't denote any distinctive sound, scene, or current within the heavy metal spectrum at that time (as opposed to terms like "speed metal", which *did* denote a particular sound).

If I'm wrong, and there *was* a particular sound uniting USPM bands which distinguished them from other heavy metal bands of the time, then great! But the way the article is written so far, it doesn't look like that's the case. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 104.218.24.11 (talk) 21:37, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

The differentiating factor is already listed in the article. USPM isn't a genre, it is a style within the overarching genre. Speed metal is also a genre commonly used to describe many of the bands denoted by the USPM style. USPM isn't a specific genre meant to discount other genres, it is a label used to differentiate between bands that are listed as "power metal", to differentiate between US style sounds and European styles. It doesn't matter what happened in the 80s, or why bands were labelled power metal in the 80s originally, in the current world, these bands are labelled as power metal because that's what the public wants to label them. This is how genres arise. They are labelled power metal because, in general, they are faster and more aggressive than standard heavy metal bands, while retaining clean vocals, albeit soaring to new heights and extremes. The term USPM is used to differentiate between two major styles within the "power metal" label. This is a well established setup, and how the article has always been structured. Removing discussion of USPM isn't going to stop USPM bands from being called USPM, as the public has already decided for years the genres of these bands, which is why it's in the article in the first place, these bands are labelled as "power metal" by reliable sources. As it's put in the A-Z of Power Metal book for defining the umbrella of the power metal genre: "It covers American metal such as Queensrÿche, Attacker, Jag Panzer, Iced Earth, Liege Lord, and Savatage; European bands such as Helloween, Gamma Ray, Blind Guardian, Running Wild, and Grave Digger; plus Symphonic Metal, Progressive Metal..." I've no idea what you're on about with albums called "Power Metal", this does not have to do with a band's genre as decided by the public. It's just a name for an album. Vortiene (talk) 23:07, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

What exactly makes a band like Helloween power metal but not Iron Maiden? Manowar is power metal but Dio isn't? They all share the same musical traits and definition of power metal. I've heard people say that Iron Maiden isn't fast enough to be power metal and that's why Helloween is, but by that logic I could say Obituary isn't death metal because they are nowhere near the speed of Cannibal Corpse so that only makes Cannibal Corpse death metal despite both bands sharing the same musical traits to be death metal. Maybe somebody has more of an answer to this as i just see it as a genre that started with Rainbow and Iron Maiden ect., and it just progressed from there. 2602:306:83B3:C1B0:C112:2DDC:1E3B:70BE (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 21:41, 29 September 2018 (UTC)

"American power metal" is Speed metal

• "American power metal" seems to be exactly what Speed metal article describes:

US power metal (often abbreviated USPM) is often faster and more energetic than traditional heavy metal, with a more riff-driven approach and a relative lack of keyboard usage compared to its later European counterpart. However, it is often more melodic than thrash metal, with a greater emphasis on guitar leads. USPM is also notable for its widespread (but not universal) use of high-register operatic vocals.

Compare to:

It is usually considered less abrasive and more melodic than thrash metal, showing less influence from hardcore punk. However, speed metal is usually faster and more aggressive than traditional heavy metal, also showing more inclination to virtuoso soloing and featuring short instrumental passages between couplets. Speed metal songs frequently make use of highly expressive vocals, but are usually less likely to employ 'harsh' vocals than thrash metal songs.

This is literally the same music with two names in different countries. Beaumain (talk) 14:20, 5 December 2019 (UTC)

Stylistically they are very similar, yes, and I agree with your assessment mostly. However it is important to note USPM alongside power metal due to its prominence in the 80s and its appearance in references in general. The location origination of the styles differ, speed metal having originated earlier on. Speed metal also is more inclined to high tempo in general, whereas USPM isn't necessarily always speed-oriented. I think it's important to discuss USPM within this article as there are many bands that are typically discussed as "USPM bands" rather than "Speed metal bands". The article is rather clear that EU power metal is more widely popularized these days, so I think it's a fair point of view. Vortiene (talk) 16:48, 5 December 2019 (UTC)

I'd like to add, try not to think of the two styles as "style exclusive to europe" and "style exclusive to USA", it's somewhat confusing in their names being where they originated, but neither style is exclusive to their place of origin anymore. I'm about to overly simplify it, but for example, think of the two as "Hard Power metal" and "Keyboard-oriented Melodic Power Metal". The names USPM and EUPM are confusing in that manner, and I don't particularly like these labels either, but they are distinct styles, so it's important to discuss them. We can't generalize all of USPM as speed metal, because bands like Manilla Road, Fates Warning, etc. don't even play with consistently fast tempos, which is a defining characteristic of speed metal. They utilize other components of power metal, like the soaring vocals, often mystical themes, and more melodic approach rather than just the speed aspect. Additionally, not containing the keyboard integration and even further focus on melody that is a feature of EUPM. Hence the differentiation. Vortiene (talk) 02:59, 8 December 2019 (UTC)

Personally, I believe that just dividing by those two regions aren't very useful. Early German power metal such as Blind Guardian and Running Wild was just as much riff-based as the American power metal scene at the time. Also USPM has been rather obsolete since the early 90s, with just Manowar and Iced Earth gaining attention. The power metal most of us recognize is that soft approach that has reached mainstream levels, such as Sabaton and Dragonforce, and is more used by the United States these days. Though you'll still find some riff-based power metal bands such as Visigoth, but they're usually also labeled as "new wave of traditional heavy metal." To be fair, almost all of those riff-based bands aren't pure power metal to begin with; they are often augmented with an additional heavy or speed metal label. Yungstirjoey666 (talk) 15:58, 5 December 2022 (UTC)

What about Avenged Sevenfold?

Their last four albums have been characteristically very close to this genre. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.152.251.23 (talk) 09:50, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

Power metal influence, yes, but more or less straight-up heavy metal/hard rock/metalcore. Yungstirjoey666 (talk) 15:47, 5 December 2022 (UTC)

WP:UGC

progarchives.com is not a reliable source since it is user generated. maybe the website has been around for decades but the website is still unreliable. Sikonmina (talk) 08:34, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

Simply dividing power metal between “US” and European” styles isn’t very useful

First of all, the early German power metal scene was just riff-based and aggressive as United States was, with bands like Blind Guardian and Running Wild. Second of all, the US scene mostly fade out since the early 90s, with only Manowar and Iced Earth gaining most of the recognition. Not to mention, there is more sound variety and popular recognition from the softer so-called European style. And finally, the US scene or most of those riff-centered bands weren’t “pure” power metal, but rather a mix with traditional heavy or speed metal. New bands such as Visigoth are labeled as “New Wave of Traditional Heavy Metal.” To some pm purists, they aren’t even considered power metal.

I would understand if we are bringing up the early US bands as a scene, but the same should be done with Germany. Yungstirjoey666 (talk) 23:57, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

The reason there is a description of two different styles is because these styles have been coined within sources and are consistently used to differentiate. This isn't to diminish German-based power metal, since it's arguably the biggest force behind EUPM alongside Sweden, but Germany encompasses both EUPM and Speed Metal's origins. Whereas USPM originated elsewhere and has a different stylistic approach. Germany's influence is split between the EUPM style and German Speed Metal. As for terminology - it's not that we want to accentuate any specific region like USA or Germany, it's that the core name of these two styles includes the region it originated from...not that the country of origin is the only thing important about these styles. (not the best style naming due to this very confusion, but it's what is generally used) Vortiene (talk) 21:46, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

Helloween does seem to be important in developing the style we know of today, but what about something like 90s Blind Guardian, which is among the heaviest in the genre? Personally, I find that they have more in common with Iced Earth than Sonata Arctica.

I think it's understandable to divide them by "scenes," but as music styles, US power metal isn't really "pure" power metal; it's really traditional heavy metal or speed metal with some epicness involved. Not saying that they aren't power metal, but they aren't nothing else besides. Aside from the fantasy elements and epic chorus (the latter of which can be found in bands like Iron Maiden), there isn't really much in common between the two scenes. At least with Floridan and Swedish death metal scenes, while they both have some differences, they are still considered straight-up death metal. Yungstirjoey666 (talk) 22:58, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

US Power metal, according to the sources used in the article, is a specific style of power metal. The idea of "pure"ness is a very nebulous thing, we must simply write what sources like documentaries and articles say about power metal as a whole. It's easy to underestimate influences or prominence of a now-less popular style like USPM when it was at the height of popularity, so we must respect sources and use the information available rather than inject opinion to the article. In order to add to or modify the article's contents to be more accurate, we must find resources such as documentaries on the subject, books about the subject, or published information about it. We do have some books and documentaries within the article, but there aren't all that many for the genre. Perhaps you would be able to find some more recent ones to add additional information to the article. Our job is simply to broach the subject of power metal based on the information we find within these sources without adding original research. Vortiene (talk) 06:03, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

Fair enough. I'd still say that simply reducing the binary to "USPM hard EUPM soft" is not really a good general summary. For example, Queensryche isn't necessarily harder than Helloween. Some sources state that USPM has two sides: the "aggressive" bands like Jag Panzer and Riot are closer to speed/thrash, and the melo/prog bands like Crimson Glory and Savatage. I am wondering if you can check back on these sources for reference:

https://rideintoglory.com/marcos-guide-to-uspm/

https://www.metalmusicarchives.com/subgenre/us-power-metal

In the two bullet points in the introduction paragraph, you could instead state that USPM generally has a more raw, riff-driven approach closer to that of traditional heavy metal, and EUPM, which originally derived from German speed metal, often features a more-theatrical approach that focuses more on vocals and is more likely to feature keyboards or orchestra.

Additionally, you can also point out bands utilizing aspects from both USPM and EUPM. Truthfully speaking, I don't really have any reliable sources on this, but maybe someone can refer to Sabaton utilizing both keyboard theatrics and riff structure similar to that of Manowar.reliable sources on this, but maybe someone can refer to Sabaton utilizing both keyboard theatrics and riff structure similar to that of Manowar. Yungstirjoey666 (talk) 15:50, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

I would also like to point out that EUPM generally draws more from non-metal elements, such as folk, orchestra, and electronic, but I'm pretty sure some of those things have already been stated in the wiki. Again, I don't have a definitive source on this, but you can use bands like Dragonforce and Stratovarius for reference.

Once again, using the sources above, I would redefine USPM and EUPM into something like this:

-The first pioneered and largely practiced in North America with a raw and more riff-centric sound with closer roots to traditional heavy metal;

-A later, more popular style more based on German speed metal and has spread within Europe, Japan, and Latin America, focusing more on vocals and other non-metal elements, and often accompanied with keyboards Yungstirjoey666 (talk) 18:07, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

For example, due to the modern prominence of EU style power metal, we could add a lot more discussion of modern history of power metal if we had good sources for that. I'd prefer that over wholesale removing information about USPM when we have sources that discuss its history in the 80s and 90s. Even if in the end the bulk of the article is discussing history of EUPM it'd be great, because as we know, EUPM has maintained a lot more popularity over the last 2 decades in comparison. But we must have good sources for new information. Vortiene (talk) 06:14, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

Original use of the power metal terminology?

Back in the 80s, I believe power metal was referred to more intense underground metal music in general, with Metallica's early demo and Pantera's Phil Anselmo debut album being named as such. One primary source I have was Metallica's early business cards made by former bassist Ron McGovney: https://twitter.com/RonMcGovney/status/1350934682666459136?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1350934682666459136%7Ctwgr%5E7d79ad6e05cab5367045614b7a91ececcecf7003%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Floudwire.com%2Fmetallica-original-business-card-ron-mcgovney%2F.

I believe this German review of Gamma Ray from 1993 was an early example that helped defined power metal into what it is nowadays: https://www.rockhard.de/reviews/gamma-ray-insanity-and-genius_257367.html.

I am still looking onto this, but it seems like an interesting point that could be brought up somehow? Yungstirjoey666 (talk) 18:30, 26 January 2023 (UTC)