Talk:Carnation Revolution

Cleanup

This article should be marked for cleanup and improvement. I don't have the time and knowlage for this, but I still have the impression it is too much cliche and pov -prone, does not go indepth enough in many areas. Th unpassioned descitprion of prior and post events, and some section to present diffrent points of view still prevailing would be much needed. --BBird 12:59 29 December 2005 (UTC)

The first couple of paragraphs are barely readable. This article desperately needs rewriting for clarity and citation of sources. -anon

I've cleaned up some of the English grammar but it is mostly readable by someone with English as a native language. I have made adjustments to political terminology but it's not that bad. As for sources, better to let someone with more than a passing interest in the subject have a look. My area of expertise is Eastern Europe not Iberia so I don't have anything on Portugal particularly. Lstanley1979 (talk) 16:36, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Hi all, in 2021, in response to this being linked to the Temporary Gentleman article on the mainpage, I've been tidying this up. It's a great article, and worthy of more polishing. Kudos to the people who plunked in the raw material. I'll try and edit out the glaring POV, but history is all a pastiche of POV. The old regime was a dicatorship, for instance. cheers Billyshiverstick (talk) 02:56, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

Reality Check

I was in Lisbon for this revolution. I was in the Naval Officers Club the afternoon of the 25th of April 1974 having drinks with a Portuguese Naval Lieutenant -- whom I believe was a member of their naval intelligence unit. [This is actually a funny story -- he mistook me, for reasons to be left unsaid here, for a CIA operative and wanted to pass word, via me, to the CIA that the revolution was being run by the good guys.] One thing I witnessed with my own eyes that afternoon, while it was underway, was the destruction of the central Lisbon offices of PIDA/DGS (the secret police headquarters) mostly accomplished by small arms fire. I was told by my Portuguese friend that the secret police staff had not been allowed out of the building. Can anyone else confirm this? KipHansen (talk) 19:23, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Hello KipHansen! It seem we were both in Lisbon at the time... And although I'm not old enough to remember the details, as far as I know the agents barricadet inside the PIDE/DGS headquarters at Rua António Maria Cardoso opened fired at the population demonstrating outside and killed 4 bystanders. The reply, mainly done with with the aid of Heckler & Koch G3's, lead to the surrender of the surounded agents, who were all arrested. There was some small destruction and vandalism inside, but most of the archives were saved and are today kept at the Portuguese National Archives - Torre do Tombo. Hope I helped you! Cheers. The Ogre (talk) 23:58, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Dear Ogre,

Thanks for replying. I was aware that some or most of the files had been salvaged, though I heard that they had been in the basement. As of four or five in the afternoon, when I was driven to the PIDE/DGS building, there certainly were no civilians on the streets, protesting or otherwise.

At this time, there were still tanks patrolling, sounds of gunfire in the distance, and unmarked roadblocks. Civilians seemed content to stay indoors and keep their heads down. I should have. We were caught in one of the roadblocks and my 'guide'--an officer in the revolution--was uncertain which side occupied the roadblock. He slid his pistol into his lap under his coat, pointed at the window as we drove up. The checkpoint guard laid his automatic rifle across the driver's side window sill and spoke in rapid Portuguese. The perfect Mexican standoff. Apparently, the guard used a code word that brought smiles to my guides face, he whipped out his official "I'm a revolutionary" pass, and we were through. I thought I was going to die.

Back to the PIDE/DGS building, there were a lot of military men simply standing, from all the branches-army, navy, etc-many behind sparse cover of automobiles or street trees, firing away at the building, with whatever weapon they had to hand. There was no returning fire by this time. The building was showing serious signs of beginning to crumble. That no one had been allowed out was the story being passed around laced with a sense of deep pride.

Anyone else around that part of Lisbon that afternoon?

The building certainlu could not have been starting to crumble, as it was still fully standing 20 years after those events, unrepaired. It was eventually demolished and converted in some kind of condomunium. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.169.37.204 (talk) 01:20, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

KipHansen (talk) 01:44, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Hello again KipHansen! I just checked:

• At 16:15 agents of the PIDE/DGS barricated at the Lisbon headquarters open fire on the crowd outside killing 1 bystander and injuring several more.
• As a consequence, cavalry and infantry troops close the entrance to the street (Rua António Maria Cardoso) and suround the headquarters.
• By 18:45 the Movimento das Forças Armadas publishes the Law-Decree 171/74 of April 25th extinguishing the PIDE/DGS (and the Portuguese Legion and Mocidade Portuguesa).
• At 21:00 the surounded PIDE/DGS agents open fire killing 4 civilians and wounding 45 (people apparentely did not respect the barricades). Navy troops join the siege and the PIDE/DGS members surrender.

If you can read Portuguese you can see a detailed timeline at this site. Cheers! The Ogre (talk) 19:14, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

You can also check this site and this one (here's a not so detailed timeline in English). The PIDE/DGS would only officially surrender in the 26th of April. The Ogre (talk) 19:20, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Ogre, So my memory serves me right. The Secret Police would have all still been in there the afternoon of the 25th, the first day of the revolution, when I was there, between 2 and 6 in the afternoon. There were a lot of angry people surrounding the building that afternoon, but to me they all appeared to be military and armed.

You say the official record says someone inside the Secret Police building fired at someone outside at 4:15 in the afternoon, killing one and injuring several. So, they had not been allowed out, they had not surrendered. It is only later in the evening, after dark (21:00 hrs in April would be dark) that the Secret Police seriously open fire on the "bystanders".

This building was thoroughly surrounded by the time I arrived in the early afternoon. It had the appearance of having been surrounded continuously since shortly after midnight when the revolution began. I was told "We have the PIDE/DGS surrounded in their headquarters and we have allowed no one out".

Can you ask around and find someone who was actually there, himself, in person, for a significant period that day, and took part in the battle? A friend or relative? I'm really just curious, partly about what actually took place, and partly in how actuality gets modified to become official history.

Thanks for your continued help and patient fact checking.

KipHansen (talk) 22:29, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Hello once again KipHansen! Sorry, I do not know anyone who personally participated in the surrender of the PIDE/DGS headquarters! The Ogre (talk) 17:57, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Wow, so cool. I wish there was a way to get your eyewitness accounts into the article. You were there, we were not! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Billyshiverstick (talk • contribs) 03:03, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

Frivolous flags on infoboxes

Is it really appropriate that made up flags are used for both the incumbent Portuguese regime and the MFA. I know that the symbols used in these info box flags are real, but they were never flown by these organizations. Perhaps no info box flags or PT flag on both? A Tree In A Box (talk) 01:37, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

Nomenclature

The intro currently reads "also known as the 25 April (Portuguese: 25 de Abril)". I presume this English date format was chosen per WP:NUMBERS convention, but WP:NUMBERS also states:

   Phrases such as Fourth of July (or July Fourth, but not July 4th), Cinco de Mayo, Seventh of March Speech, and Sete de Setembro are proper names, to which rules for dates do not apply (A typical Fourth of July celebration includes fireworks).

which should be the prevailing guideline here. I don't speak Portuguese, but I think the most direct translation of 25 de Abril would be [the] 25th of April -- perhaps this is different for non-American readers, but to me 25 April does not read the same, and the 25 April just seems grammatically wrong in any context. AS a supporting example, 25 de Abril Bridge currently includes the English translation "25th of April Bridge," though no source is provided. Could any native Portuguese speakers chime in? Perhaps there is already an official English translation? Walkersam (talk) 22:28, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Unions before 1974

The article says labour unions were prohibited, but that's false. They existed (I even know the leader of one of those unions), but of course with some restrictions. Check more documentation here. https://ler.letras.up.pt/uploads/ficheiros/3359.pdf 2003:EE:A73E:6700:E8F2:D099:1026:E54 (talk) 18:18, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

OK. Will change it. Thanks. -My, oh my! (Mushy Yank) 19:20, 17 April 2024 (UTC)