Talk:Graham Hancock
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Q1: Why does the article say that Hancock's ideas are pseudoscientific?
A1: Hancock has written numerous books and has made television documentaries, but does not submit his work for peer review in mainstream academic journals. Wikipedia articles are based on reliable secondary sources and do not present theories as valid if they are not supported by experts in the relevant field. When Hancock's work was examined by mainstream archaeologists for the BBC's Horizon documentary series in 1999, academics were critical of aspects of his work, and after a complaint by Hancock and Robert Bauval, the Broadcasting Standards Commission found only one point of unfairness in the documentary.[1]
Hancock has ample opportunities to promote his work through his own channels, but it is not the job of Wikipedia to right great wrongs. Unless his work undergoes peer review and is accepted in the academic community, it cannot be presented as having equal validity to work that has undergone peer review. |
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Arbitration Ruling on the Treatment of Pseudoscience In December of 2006 the Arbitration Committee ruled on guidelines for the presentation of topics as pseudoscience in Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Pseudoscience. The final decision was as follows:
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Semi-protected edit request on 14 October 2024
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Change "Pseudoscientific" and "pseudo archaeological" "Scientific" and "archaeological", because the man himself clearly stated that he found this ridiculous. G12427 (talk) 20:00, 14 October 2024 (UTC)
- He is neither a subject expert or an RS. Slatersteven (talk) 20:03, 14 October 2024 (UTC)
- Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. -- Maddy from Celeste (WAVEDASH) 20:15, 14 October 2024 (UTC)
- Who do his personal opinions matter on the topic? Lostsandwich (talk) 02:05, 15 October 2024 (UTC)
- Graham Hancock does not appear to have absolved any kind of schooling in archeology, yet still makes many claims which go against common scientific consensus without providing a sufficient amount of supported evidence. He also has been shown to exaggerate evidence, or to ignore previously disclosed facts (for example the fact that the "Bimini Road" has been extensively proven to be a stretch of beach rock, yet he claims it to be an Atlantian road in "Ancient Apocalypse"). In turn he would fall under the very defenition of pseudoarcheology.
- I think that in turn it is reasonable to refer to him as a pseudoarcheologist in his wiki-article. SomeCatOnTheInternet (talk) 17:44, 18 October 2024 (UTC)
- He is an investigative Journalist! He’s never claimed to be an archaeologist! Why can’t you put his actual information out there? Whats the point of locking his wiki so no one else can edit it and refuse to do any requested edits unless you’re trying to slander him? He is an investigative journalist. He goes where the story is and asks questions! Whoever is running wiki this wiki page is ridiculous. 2601:803:900:4B10:94D3:D505:D3D6:2259 (talk) 03:44, 21 October 2024 (UTC)
- The article is semi protected to prevent vandalism. Anyone with an auto-confirmed account can edit it.
- Wikipedia is based on what reliable sources have said about a subject. It is not a fansite.
- The article does not say that Hancock claims to be an archaeologist. The last paragraph of the lead explains why Hancock is not doing investigative journalism. Hypnôs (talk) 05:31, 21 October 2024 (UTC)
- YOu do not have to be an archaeologist to carry out "pseudo archaeology", in fact if anything the exact opposite is true, "pseudo archaeology" precludes you from being called an archaeologist. Slatersteven (talk) 10:32, 21 October 2024 (UTC)
- Definition of pseudoarcheology as per Wikipedia:
- Pseudoarchaeology (sometimes called fringe or alternative archaeology) consists of attempts to study, interpret, or teach about the subject-matter of archaeology while rejecting, ignoring, or misunderstanding the accepted data-gathering and analytical methods of the discipline. These pseudoscientific interpretations involve the use of artifacts, sites or materials to construct scientifically insubstantial theories to strengthen the pseudoarchaeologists' claims. Methods include exaggeration of evidence, dramatic or romanticized conclusions, use of fallacious arguments, and fabrication of evidence.
- Unfortunately he does not just ask questions. In his most recent work "Ancient Apocalypse" he asks the question "Was there a highly advanced, globe-spanning civilization at the end of the last ice age?". By itself this would be just a question and you'd be right.
- However, Graham Hancock proceeds in the following eight episodes with exploring various, presumably unconnected archeological sites (or sites that aren't even archeological, i.e; the Bimini-"Road") and claiming that they are older than scientifically accepted with little to no evidence. This is pseudoarcheology, making him a pseudoarcheologist. As pointed out by User:Hypnôs and User:Slatersteven one does not need to claim to be part of the archeological field to become a pseudoarcheologist. As per defenition, one only needs to make enough unsubstantiated claims about archeology.
- I hope this clears up some confusion. SomeCatOnTheInternet (talk) 11:35, 21 October 2024 (UTC)
- He is an investigative Journalist! He’s never claimed to be an archaeologist! Why can’t you put his actual information out there? Whats the point of locking his wiki so no one else can edit it and refuse to do any requested edits unless you’re trying to slander him? He is an investigative journalist. He goes where the story is and asks questions! Whoever is running wiki this wiki page is ridiculous. 2601:803:900:4B10:94D3:D505:D3D6:2259 (talk) 03:44, 21 October 2024 (UTC)
Clarification
[edit]The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Extended content
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1. GH was indirectly, but clearly, accused of various serious things. a. https://www.theguardian.com/science/2022/nov/27/atlantis-lost-civilisation-fake-news-netflix-ancient-apocalypse b. https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2022/nov/23/ancient-apocalypse-is-the-most-dangerous-show-on-netflix c. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/article/2024/jul/01/netflix-ancient-apocalypse-canceled d. https://newrepublic.com/article/169282/right-wing-graham-hancock-netflix-atlantis e. https://hyperallergic.com/791381/why-archaeologists-are-fuming-over-netflixs-ancient-apocalypse-series/ f. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-12-07/experts-say-ancient-apocalypse-netflix-series-is-racist-untrue/101728298 g. https://www.theguardian.com/science/2022/nov/27/atlantis-lost-civilisation-fake-news-netflix-ancient-apocalypse h. https://theconversation.com/with-netflixs-ancient-apocalypse-graham-hancock-has-declared-war-on-archaeologists-194881 i. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-13965425/ancient-APOCALYPSE-comet-Netflix.html 2. I updated the article providing a RS source saying that GH strongly, and in no uncertain terms, rejected such very serious allegations. a. Joe Rogan Experience #2136 - 2:02, 2:08, & 2:19. b. Hancock has strongly rejected allegations that he is a racist, a white supremacist, etc., as well as other defamatory accusations by the SAA Archaeological Record, saying he was "personally hurt badly...wounded badly". [1]. He has also has expressed support for native rights.[2] 3. I was reverted, and then I reverted...twice, which I freely admit was wrong, although an honest mistake. My sincere apologies. 4. I was given an "edit warring" warning on my home page. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Bill_the_Cat_7 a. I responded, saying, "I provided an RS, which apparently you didn't agree with. We can discuss it on the talk page should you wish, but I honestly believe you are the one who is "edit warring". Let's take this up on the Talk page. Bill the Cat (talk)" 5. That didn't seem to satisfy User:Hemiauchenia. Instead, the user opened a ticket to the Edit Warring WP site (I can't find the link for this; it may have been deleted), as well as this RS site. a. Note that I said I was willing to discuss it on the Talk Page of GH. a. This might be WP:WikiBullying, but I'm not sure and I'm not claiming that it is. 6. The SAA article claimed that "Hancock’s narrative emboldens extreme voices that misrepresent archaeological knowledge in order to spread false historical narratives that are overtly misogynistic, chauvinistic, racist, and anti-Semitic." a. Most reasonable people would agree that these are strong accusations and defamatory if they are not true. According to GH, these accusations and defamatory statements are very much completely false. 7. I'm NOT suggesting that the article from the SAA be in any way removed or censored. I think it's important. In fact, I think it ought to be expanded to explain what exactly is being claimed and why. However, I maintain that an accurate and equally clear rebuttal in GH's own words, must be included in the article. 8. With the policies linked below, I can provide another RS for GH's full response in his own words (not in WP Voice), to most or all claims leveled against him. Although this discussion should have been explored on GH's Talk Page, my hand has been forced, so I'm engaging here. I can update GH's Talk Page with these points after this has been resolved. a. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons b. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons#Avoid_self-published_sources 9. I haven't seriously edited WP in a quite a long time (12+ years). Forgive me if I don't have neither the time nor inclination to engage in such matters on a regular basis. I'm just a WP Gnome at this point. Nevertheless, much of the article is a direct attack on GH's theories (pseudo this and pseudo that, etc.). Fair enough, since they are sourced. A direct/indirect attack on GH's character/motivations/implications must be responded to, in his own words, for the sake of neutrality. Simply saying that he doesn't agree, without being allowed to speak for himself, is unacceptable. Thank you. ~~~~ Bill the Cat 7 (talk) 16:48, 19 October 2024 (UTC) |
- What are you actually suggesting? As far as I can see, the self-published source you've provided can at best support the statement "Hancock denies being a racist or white supremacist". I don't see the point of including this, though, because it's kind of a given that he would make such a denial. Almost everybody denies being racist – especially after they've done something racist. – Joe (talk) 17:25, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
- You don't see a point in allowing the person in question to defend himself against obvious defamatory claims? Seriously? If the accusations are true (although WP is not concerned, for good reasons, with "the truth"), they are NOT defamatory, but that's the pertinent question, right? GH should be allowed to respond for purposes of neutrality, even with self-published sources, per self-published sources policies. Bill the Cat 7 (talk) 18:20, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
- Of course he can respond. That's got nothing to do with us; we're an encyclopaedia, not a forum for debate. The question is whether adding "Hancock denies being a racist" to our biography is adequately supported by sources (yes) and useful to readers (probably not, because what else would he say?) – Joe (talk) 18:45, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
- You don't see a point in allowing the person in question to defend himself against obvious defamatory claims? Seriously? If the accusations are true (although WP is not concerned, for good reasons, with "the truth"), they are NOT defamatory, but that's the pertinent question, right? GH should be allowed to respond for purposes of neutrality, even with self-published sources, per self-published sources policies. Bill the Cat 7 (talk) 18:20, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
- People saying that "Graham Hancock has promoted ideas of racist origin" is not the same as saying that he has been
indirectly, but clearly, accused
of being a racist and white supremacist. If you can't understand this basic distinction then you have no business editing Wikipedia. Hemiauchenia (talk) 17:32, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
- Well, that seems to me to be clearly hostile and a personal attack, which I find very offensive. Perhaps you should assume good faith. At this point, I think you are engaging in WP:WikiBullying. I would much rather discuss this in a civil manner, but your last statement makes it difficult, although I will continue to engage civilly. Bill the Cat 7 (talk) 18:20, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
- I think you should read WP:CIR. Hemiauchenia (talk) 18:25, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
- Another passive-agreesive attack. You sure you want to continue along these lines? Bill the Cat 7 (talk) 18:28, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
- If you want to take me to WP:ANI to report me, be my guest. Hemiauchenia (talk) 18:29, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
- Another passive-agreesive attack. You sure you want to continue along these lines? Bill the Cat 7 (talk) 18:28, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
- I think you should read WP:CIR. Hemiauchenia (talk) 18:25, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
- Well, that seems to me to be clearly hostile and a personal attack, which I find very offensive. Perhaps you should assume good faith. At this point, I think you are engaging in WP:WikiBullying. I would much rather discuss this in a civil manner, but your last statement makes it difficult, although I will continue to engage civilly. Bill the Cat 7 (talk) 18:20, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
- If we are going to include something on Hancock's response, this article from the Express is (surprisingly) a better source. – Joe (talk) 08:05, 20 October 2024 (UTC)
- We already says he denies it "Hancock has rejected allegations that he is racist, and has expressed support for native rights.". |Slatersteven (talk) 09:50, 20 October 2024 (UTC)
- Oh, right. What are we even talking about here then, Bill the Cat 7? – Joe (talk) 11:38, 20 October 2024 (UTC)
- You started this thread, I assume you know. Slatersteven (talk) 11:39, 20 October 2024 (UTC)
- Erm, I didn't? – Joe (talk) 11:53, 20 October 2024 (UTC)
- Ahh, I saw your ping and thought it was a signature, sorry. Slatersteven (talk) 11:58, 20 October 2024 (UTC)
- Erm, I didn't? – Joe (talk) 11:53, 20 October 2024 (UTC)
- You started this thread, I assume you know. Slatersteven (talk) 11:39, 20 October 2024 (UTC)
- Oh, right. What are we even talking about here then, Bill the Cat 7? – Joe (talk) 11:38, 20 October 2024 (UTC)
- We already says he denies it "Hancock has rejected allegations that he is racist, and has expressed support for native rights.". |Slatersteven (talk) 09:50, 20 October 2024 (UTC)
References
- ^ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DL1_EMIw6w&t=14479s
- ^ "The Strange and Dangerous Right-Wing Freakout Over Ancient Apocalypse". The New Republic. ISSN 0028-6583. Retrieved 2024-04-26.
I'm going to need a few days to respond. Please be patient.
Bill the Cat 7 (talk) 15:14, 22 October 2024 (UTC)
- I think you should read WP:IDHT. Pretty much nobody either here or at RSN has agreed with you, and at this point it is time for you to WP:DROPTHESTICK. Hemiauchenia (talk) 15:18, 22 October 2024 (UTC)
- Is it ok if I was allowed time to respond? Bill the Cat 7 (talk) 15:37, 22 October 2024 (UTC)
- Will it actually be a new argument or just the same failed argument restated? Slatersteven (talk) 15:40, 22 October 2024 (UTC)
- I'll create a new section (topic), with undoubted reliable sources as well as keeping with WP editing policies, and we can contine from there. Is that fair? Bill the Cat 7 (talk) 15:45, 22 October 2024 (UTC)
- For what? Slatersteven (talk) 15:48, 22 October 2024 (UTC)
- For GH's response. I think we would all agree that a person is entitled to defend himself against allegations.. Bill the Cat 7 (talk) 15:54, 22 October 2024 (UTC)
- We already say he denies it. Slatersteven (talk) 16:14, 22 October 2024 (UTC)
- As @Joe Roe said, "...it's kind of a given that he would make such a denial. Almost everybody denies being racist – especially after they've done something racist." (Italics added.) What/why, specifically, does his denial entail? Shouldn't casual readers of this article know that? Nevertheless, I still seriously need a few days to propose a new edit. Please be patient. Bill the Cat 7 (talk) 17:16, 22 October 2024 (UTC)
- Then just suggest a text, that is all you need to do. Slatersteven (talk) 10:03, 23 October 2024 (UTC)
- As @Joe Roe said, "...it's kind of a given that he would make such a denial. Almost everybody denies being racist – especially after they've done something racist." (Italics added.) What/why, specifically, does his denial entail? Shouldn't casual readers of this article know that? Nevertheless, I still seriously need a few days to propose a new edit. Please be patient. Bill the Cat 7 (talk) 17:16, 22 October 2024 (UTC)
- We already say he denies it. Slatersteven (talk) 16:14, 22 October 2024 (UTC)
- For GH's response. I think we would all agree that a person is entitled to defend himself against allegations.. Bill the Cat 7 (talk) 15:54, 22 October 2024 (UTC)
- For what? Slatersteven (talk) 15:48, 22 October 2024 (UTC)
- I'll create a new section (topic), with undoubted reliable sources as well as keeping with WP editing policies, and we can contine from there. Is that fair? Bill the Cat 7 (talk) 15:45, 22 October 2024 (UTC)
- Will it actually be a new argument or just the same failed argument restated? Slatersteven (talk) 15:40, 22 October 2024 (UTC)
- Is it ok if I was allowed time to respond? Bill the Cat 7 (talk) 15:37, 22 October 2024 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 19 October 2024
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A change from “pseudoscience” and/or “pseudo archaeologist” should be removed per the individual himself stating he is an investigative journalist and finds the aforementioned terms “absurd” 66.76.20.102 (talk) 19:50, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
- Not done Wikipedia relies on what reliable sources say about a subject, not what people claim about themselves. The article describes him primarily as a writer, which is correct. Hemiauchenia (talk) 20:20, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
Flawed argument
[edit]If these quotes are correct, he merely claims that "large regions", not ALL of Antarctica, had been ice-free. Therefore it's irrelevant that he wouldn't mention the possibility that much of the ice may very well have been there much longer. This should be removed as an attack on credibility.
Hancock wrote that "the best recent evidence suggests that" large regions of Antarctica may have been ice free until about 6,000 years ago, referring to the Piri Reis map and Hapgood's work from the 1960s. What is left entirely unmentioned are the extensive studies of the Antarctic ice sheet by George H. Denton, published in 1981, which showed the ice to be hundreds of thousands of years old. 2600:1702:5E73:5600:1CA5:FA5C:D8B9:2814 (talk) 23:34, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
- Hancock's claim of large areas of Antarctica being ice free until 6,000 years is from a geological perspective, absurd (Antarctica as been essentially completely ice-covered for the last 5-10 million years, millions of years before the start of the current ice age) and completely refuted by evidence from paleoclimatology and ice cores. If Hancock's claim had any merit it would be mentioned in the extensive scientific literature discussing Antarctica and its ice sheets, but it's not. Hemiauchenia (talk) 00:06, 20 October 2024 (UTC)
- The "best evidence" that Hancock has presented is very antiquated and decades old; incorporates a discredited dating methodology, and for unknown reasons overlooks literally dozens of contemporary and more recent studies that refute his conclusions. For example, since Hapgood's research in the 1960s, literally dozens of peer-reviewed papers, master’s theses, and PhD dissertations have studied the grounding line of the Antarctic Ice Sheet and location of the seaward edge of its associated ice shelf in the Ross sea embayment since the Last Glacial Maximum. They have used sidescan sonar and seismic reflection to map surface morphology and internal stratigraphy of the bottom of the Ross Sea. Also, innumerable sediment cores have been taken from the bottom of the Ross Sea to determine and map the lithology and environments of deposition of these deposits and date them using a variety of independent methods. Finally, using diatoms, foraminifera, and other microfossils from the sediments in these cores, the paleoenvironmental conditions under which these sediments were determined and mapped for the Ross Sea from the Last Glacial Maximum to present. These studies, and similar ones for the Weddell Sea, demonstrate that the greatest expansion of West Antarctic Ice Sheet occurred at the Last Glacial Maximum and it shrank with a few minor readvances to it modern limits. The largest known "ice sheet-free" area, now covered by grounded ice, that existed prior to 6000 BP was patch of Ross Sea that existed from 10,200 to 7,900 BP. Even it was at that time flooded by the Ross Sea and covered by a thick floating ice shelf and uninhabitable. Similar research has been conducted all along the coast of Antarctica and returned the same results for the East Antarctic Ice Sheet and refuted the idea that it had even "largely ice-free" since the Last Glacial Maximum.
- If you want that statement changed, you will need to present a reliable source that supports Hancock's assertions independently of either Hancock or Hapgood.
- Some random examples of the above publications are:
- Ackert Jr, R.P., Mukhopadhyay, S., Parizek, B.R. and Borns, H.W., 2007. Ice elevation near the West Antarctic Ice Sheet divide during the last glaciation. Geophysical Research Letters, 34(21). open access
- Anderson, J.B., 1999. Antarctic Marine Geology. Cambridge University Press, New York, NY, 289 pp., hardcover (ISBN 0-521-59317- 4),
- Bart, P.J., Anderson, J.B. and Nitsche, F., 2017. https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/2017JF004259 Post‐LGM grounding‐line positions of the Bindschadler paleo ice stream in the Ross Sea Embayment, Antarctica.] Journal of Geophysical Research: Earth Surface, 122(10), pp.1827-1844. open access
- Bart, P.J., Krogmeier, B.J., Bart, M.P. and Tulaczyk, S., 2017. The paradox of a long grounding during West Antarctic Ice Sheet retreat in Ross Sea. Scientific Reports, 7(1), p.1262. open access
- Ingólfsson, Ó., 2004. Quaternary glacial and climate history of Antarctica. Developments in Quaternary sciences, 2, pp.3-43.
- Kingslake, J., Scherer, R., Albrecht, T., Coenen, J., Powell, R., Reese, R., Stansell, N., Tulaczyk, S., Wearing, M. and Whitehouse, P.L., 2018. Extensive Holocene West Antarctic ice sheet retreat and rebound driven re‐advance. Nature, 558, pp.430-434. Paul H. (talk) 15:19, 20 October 2024 (UTC)
Evidence not addressed
[edit]This discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This entry focuses on a character assassination of Graham Hancock. It does not address many of his material observations, such as the quality of the stonework which forms the foundations of buildings that known primitive societies built on top of with inferior quality stonework. This entry and the one on Ancient Apocalypse are hostile and sarcastic, inviting the accusation of argumentum ad hominem. I was looking for a critique of Graham Hancock's evidence and arguments, but I find criticisms of him as a thinker, without citing evidence to support them, which is not scholarly. The constant repetition of 'pseudoarchaeological' and 'pseudoscientific' is a case in point. The attempt to discredit him as a racist is also highly unworthy of a scholar. No evidence of this is presented, and indeed Hancock consistently speaks of ancient peoples and civilisations with great respect. It is also untrue that Hancock posits an advanced civilisation that left no written language. In his second Ancient Apocalypse series, he speaks of the as yet undeciphered Rongorongo writing of Easter Island, and indeed suggests that its significance was lost due to the disruption of Easter Island's cultural tradition through the depredations of white Europeans. As a result of the entry writer's concentration on discrediting Graham Hancock, I have found nothing in this article that provides the factual critique I sought about his arguments. Hopefully someone will write another, more informative entry. Janet Elaine Harding (talk) 10:59, 20 October 2024 (UTC)
I thought this was going to be dropped? Slatersteven (talk) 14:12, 20 October 2024 (UTC) http://onlinedigeditions.com/publication/?i=634462&article_id=3531896&view=articleBrowser https://slate.com/culture/2022/11/ancient-apocalypse-graham-hancock-netflix-theory-explained.html This needs closing, as it is going nowhere fast. Slatersteven (talk) 15:24, 20 October 2024 (UTC)
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Cornish Descent
[edit]On the most recent Joe Rogan episode 2214, Graham Hancock said he was of Cornish descent. Please can this be added here as well as on famous cornish people. 147.147.131.168 (talk) 11:21, 20 October 2024 (UTC)
- Its trivia, but it would not as far as I can see be a major issue. Slatersteven (talk) 11:24, 20 October 2024 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 22 October 2024
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Suggestion to remove reference to pseudoarcheology and pseudoscientific studies in the first paragraph. The citations do not support this information. Cw1983 (talk) 09:02, 22 October 2024 (UTC)
- Not done The terms "pseudoarchaeological" and "pseudoscientific" are used by the cited sourced. Studies are not mentioned in the first paragraph. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hypnôs (talk • contribs) 09:09, 22 October 2024 (UTC)
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