Talk:Pierogi

Proposed merger

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

There is consensus to merge Varenyky into Pierogi. The majority opinion cited that they are the same dish and sources were provided to show this. AlbinoFerret 20:09, 30 September 2015 (UTC)

---

Pierogi and varenyky. Can you tell which are which?

I propose that Varenyky be merged into Pierogi. Reason: these are the same dish (pockets of unleavened dough wrapped around a sweet or savory filling into crescent-shaped dumplings and cooked in boiling water), which just happens to be called different names in different languages. If there's a difference between the two, both articles fail to explain the distinction. Pierogi seem to be much more commonly used in English than varenyky (see this Ngram) so I propose the merger to be this way, not the other. I know from previous discussions that there has been some confusion caused by the fact that Russian and Ukrainian languages have words like Pirog and Pirozhki that sound similar to Polish pierogi, but refer to different dishes. Wikipedia should clarify rather than add to the confusion, and having separate articles for one dish thing doesn't help. I'm also aware that the world of filled dumplings is a very diverse one. I'm not proposing to merge Pierogi with Kreplach, Momo, Khinkali or Empanada, because all of these are sufficiently distinct. But there doesn't seem to be any difference between pierogi and varenyky whatsoever. Should anyone oppose the merger, I hope they will explain what the difference is (and cite reliable sources). — Kpalion^(talk) 19:35, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

• Support merger as nominator. — Kpalion^(talk) 19:36, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
• Support per nom. Thanks for all the research!—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); July 9, 2015; 20:05 (UTC)
• Support merger although extra work would have to be performed regarding the word-for-word repetitions in Preparation and serving. The giant monument to "pyrohy" needs to be moved to Canada where it belongs. Would you be willing to do that? Poeticbent talk 20:48, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
  • Yes, merger will definitely have to be followed by cleanup. I'm working on Borscht now, but this is the next big topic I'd like to tackle. — Kpalion^(talk) 21:04, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
• Needs clarification. Although these are the same things in their origin, the current Polish and Ukrainian traditions show some deviations. Some points which I would like to clarify first:

• 
• 
• 
• 

• • These images (from commons:Category:Pierogi) suggest, that pierogi may also be baked, not only boiled. Is it correct? In contrast, in Ukraine and Russia, there is a clear distinction between boiled varenyky and baked pirozhki/pirogi. If the Polish term has a wider scope, how would you draw the border without merging pirozhki and pirog into the same article (which would definitely be too much)?
  • In Ukraine and Russia there is also a clear distinction between varenyky and smaller pelmeni which are filled with raw (not pre-cooked) meat. What about Poland? Are such small dumplings like pelmeni not produced at all? Or are they also called pierogi? If the latter is true, how would you separate the article from pelmeni?
  • In addition, if you merge both articles, you will have to care about the regional differences. E.g. both nations treat it as their "national dish" including specific references in literature (see "Cultural references" section in varenyky). I believe one cannot replace the word "varenyky" with "pierogi" in this section. So how would you deal with that? I can only image that you would keep both names throughout the article and alternate between them. --Off-shell (talk) 23:40, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

    Excellent points, Off-shell! I would say that in Poland, the word "pierogi" without any further qualifiers refers to filled dumplings that are boiled and then, optionally, sautéed. There exist recipes for deep-fried pierogi and yeast-raised baked pierogi, but they are usually treated as modifications of the basic recipe. See this restaurant menu for a good example: it specializes in the baked pierogi (pierogi z pieca), but also serves boiled pierogi, which are labeled "classic" (pierogi klasyczne gotowane). In the article, I would first describe the most common type of pierogi (that is, boiled) and then describe the various modifications, such as fried or baked, in the "Varieties" section. This is the approach I also used rewriting Borscht; the first major section describes the most common kind of borscht (hot, hearty, beet-based and served with sour cream) and then comes a list of varieties (some of them cold, clear, without beets or without cream).

    As for meat-filled pierogi, all recipes I've seen call for precooked meat, so that may be one way they differ from pelmeni. Anoter difference seems to be the shape. In most pictures of pelmeni I've seen, they're smaller and shaped more like tortellini or Polish uszka (but uszka are usually filled with mushrooms, not meat). Finally, pierogi are certainly of Slavic origin, wheareas pelmeni, at least according to our poorly-sourced article about them, come from the Uralic peoples of Siberia.

    Finally, merging does not mean that we can only use one name throughout the article. Of course, when describing regional or national variants and cultural significance of the dish, we should be using whatever name is most appropriate in the given context. All names and their etymologies should be explained in the first section of the article. — Kpalion^(talk) 07:27, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

    • I will say that as a big fan of Polish pierogi, I have never seen any of the foods from the pictures shown. Of course they must exist, but they seem like minor variations, to be discussed in a separate section on regional/marketing variations. I'll also suggest that if I, a Pole and fan of pierogi, have never seen them, that others (Ukrainians, etc.) may also be unaware that their words for pierogi may be (mis)used in such a fashion in some regions/specialized restaurants/etc. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 08:08, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

• Needs clarification - I agree with Off-shell as to this proposal being oversimplified. While I'm aware that you're all men who have only ever eaten hours of work in a matter of seconds, I've made varenyki (at home), ruskie pierogi (with Polish friends... and they're boiled exclusively, never baked... er, the pierogi, of course!), and pelmeni (with Russian friends). Note that they were most commonly known as ruskie (Rus'-come-Ukrainian allusion to being a dish from the Rus' peoples). In fact, the morphology is connected by the Old Eastern Slavic word 'pyr'/'pir' pertaining to a pagan feast (and connected to pyre): hence pirog, pirozhki (which are often deep-fried, not only baked), etc. How do you propose to address the complexity of the morphology, cultural/regional significance based on a simplistic check as to which variant of the food is used per WP:COMMONNAME in the Anglophone world? --Iryna Harpy (talk) 05:11, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

  Iryna, as you used to make both varenyky and pierogi, would you say they were:

  • exactly same thing,
  • slightly different variants of the same basic recipe, or
  • completely different things?

  I'm afraid we can't cite your personal experience as a source in the article, but I think we can make use of it in this discussion. — Kpalion^(talk) 07:27, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

As I've noted, I'm not opposing the use of 'pierogi' for the WP:TITLE, I'm raising questions about how the lead and content should be handled. On my own behalf, I could identify which were which as the pierogi were 'pinched' together using a commercially available mould that no self-respecting Polish or Ukrainian woman would use as it would demonstrate her laziness because it makes for harder dough, so the ones on the right are a commercial product. Ultimately, I have no objection to the use of 'pierogi' for the title as they are exactly the same thing. Speaking for Australia, in commercial terms (literally), both forms of the name are used, but it's understood to be the same product once it's explained (that is, I couldn't even begin to count how many times non-Slavs have asked me whether they're what they'd eaten and wanted to purchase, but the name of the product wasn't the same as the name they'd been introduced to it as being). What concerns me most is the confusion between 'pierogi' and 'pierog'/'pirozhki' which are entirely different foods: rich, yeast leavened dough with very different fillings that are baked or deep-fried as opposed to a thin, flour and water dough with different traditional fillings (potato and cottage cheese being the popularly associated standard, and fresh berry fillings as the dessert variety).

My concern, then, is that, for the Anglosphere, the use of the 'pierog' as the root name is confusing. Certainly, the article should be merged as we are, to all intents and purposes, describing virtually exactly the same foodstuff, therefore I "Support" the merge. How best to do it, however, needs to be addressed before the merge bearing the potential confusion due to the root Slavic morphology in mind. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 23:44, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

OK, so I'm thinking about something along these lines (see boxed text below). What do you think? — Kpalion^(talk) 13:11, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

Pierogi or pirogi (pronounced /pɪˈroʊgi/, pi-roh-ghee), also known as varenyky, are filled dumplings of East European origin, typical for Polish and Ukrainian cuisines. They are made by wrapping pockets of unleavened dough around a savory or sweet filling and cooking in boiling water. They should not be confused with a pirog or pirozhki, which are yeast-raised pies or pastries with various fillings. [...]

Etymology
The English word pierogi (plural: pierogi, pierogies or pierogis) comes from Polish pierogi [pʲɛˈrɔgʲi], which is the plural from of pieróg [ˈpʲɛruk], a generic term for filled dumplings of various kinds. It derives from Old East Slavic пиръ (pirŭ) 'feast'. Its cognates include Russian пирог (pirog) 'pie' and пирожки (pirozhki) 'baked pastries'. Varenyky comes from Ukrainian вареники (varenyky), the plural form of вареник (varenyk), which derives from Ukrainian вар (var) 'boiling liquid', indicating boiling as the primary cooking method for this kind of dumplings.

It looks like several other dumplings from the neighbouring regions are in fact also the same thing. This needs also clarification. Can they be ignored?

• Romanian Colțunași / Moldovan chiroște, also mentioned in this article. Google images suggest this is the same thing.
• Austrian de:Schlutzkrapfen, de:Kärntner Nudel seem to be the same. Google images.
• Slovak bryndzové pirohy filled with salty bryndza cheese, as mentioned in this article.
• This article mentions also Hungarian derelye. Google images suggest these are somewhat different, except for may be some varieties like this.

• 
  Kärntner Nudeln
• 
  Kärntner Nudeln
• 
  Schlutzkrapfen
• 
  Schlutzkrapfen

--Off-shell (talk) 13:57, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

I didn't want to propose more than one merger at a time, but yes, I believe we should at the very least consider (in a separate discussion) merging Colțunași with Kalduny. — Kpalion^(talk) 21:19, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

I'm not sure if Colțunași belong to Kalduny (despite common etymology) or here, but OK, this needs a separate discussion anyway. I just want to determine a "strategy" on how to deal with the numerous varieties found in the neigbouring countries. So far, when every national variety had its own page, they all were called "similar dishes". This is a rather nebulous characterisation, as some jiaozi are also "similar". Those which are "more similar than the others" have separate paragraphs on this page. Now, we are going to claim that pierogi and varenyky are not "similar" but "the same thing", while e.g. pelmeni are definitely not the same. So the question is: Do we call colțunași, derelye, schlutzkrapfen "same things" or "similar things"? This is in fact important, because e.g. this will influence the lede. The first sentence in your proposal ends with "typical for Polish and Ukrainian cuisines". However, if those other varieties are "the same thing", this sentence must include all respective countries.

I suppose, before solving this issue we may consider them "similar" but not "the same". However, there are other countries which surely have "the same thing", namely Lithuania (virtiniai), Russia (vareniki) and Slovakia (bryndzové pirohy). Russia adopted it from Ukraine in the 19th or 20th century and it is considered a Ukrainian dish in Russian cookbooks. I don't know its "standing" in Lithuania and Slovakia. So I would suggest something like the lede of Varenyky, i.e. mentioning that 1) the dish is common in ... countries and 2) it is most commonly associated with Polish and Ukrainian cuisines where it is considered a national dish. (One can of course also swap the sentences 1 and 2). --Off-shell (talk) 22:48, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

I'm OK with this approach to writing the lede. As for a general strategy, I suppose that, because this is Wikipedia, a bottom-up approach of individual merger discussions will be more effective than trying to impose overarching rules from above. But I agree that the current state where we have a multitude of articles about "similar" but differently named dishes creates two problems:

1. articles that are centered on the name rather than substance, which might be a good approach in a dictionary, but not in an encyclopedia (in other words, we should say, "let's write an article about these boiled filled dumplings of unleavened dough and put it under the most common English name they have", and not "let's write an article about all the various things than can be called pierogi (in Polish, that would even include the bicorne)");
2. many short, even stubby, articles about a subject that would be better treated on a single page, allowing a discussion of all the names, commonalities and differences in one place. — Kpalion^(talk) 08:55, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

And here's a new lede proposal:

Pierogi or pirogi (pronounced /pɪˈroʊgi/, pi-roh-ghee), also known as varenyky, are filled dumplings of East European origin. They are made by wrapping pockets of unleavened dough around a savory or sweet filling and cooking in boiling water. These dumplings are popular in various Slavic (Polish, Russian, Slovak, Ukrainian), Baltic (Latvian, Lithuanian) and other cuisines where they are know under various local names. Pierogi and varenyky are especially associated with Poland and Ukraine where they are considered national dishes. They should not be confused with a pirog or pirozhki, which are yeast-raised pies or pastries with various fillings. [...]

• Support. After the above issues were clarified, I support the proposal. The above proposal for the introduction should make it work. --Off-shell (talk) 20:14, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose while this might be logical (I am not saying it is) if we were a professional encyclopedia with a board and specialists who made final judgment calls; redirecting varenyky here will have the sole effect of causing edit wars and repeated requests to change the name of the article with almost no actual benefit to the reader whatsoever. The combined article would end up needing a minimum of two etymology sections, fighting over which images to retain, and so forth. Far more trouble would ensue than any possible benefit. μηδείς (talk) 19:21, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

  I think the benefit to the reader would be that they are not led to believe that pierogi and varenyky are two different dishes when in fact they're just two names for the same thing. Do you really think we should compromise Wikipedia's quality just to pre-emptively appease edit-warmongers? — Kpalion^(talk) 21:19, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

Do you really think I am going to accept your insincere, condescending, rhetorical nonsense as worth responding to in good faith? μηδείς (talk) 18:18, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Frankly speaking, μηδείς, I see nothing insincere in Kpalion's question and I don't think it's nonsense. If merging means an increase in quality, then we should consider it, except the gain is really marginal. Here we have a case, where Western Ukrainians call these dumpling pyrohy, and Canadian Ukrainians, who mostly descend from Western Ukrainian, call it this way. Ukrainians themselves admit that varenyky and pyrohy are the same thing. Besides, there are cases where having different names for the same thing in one article does not cause trouble, e.g. kashk/qurut. --Off-shell (talk) 19:16, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Frankly speaking, do you really believe I should even read hostile comments that start "frankly speaking" or "do you really believe"? Do you understand my point? The focus should be on the issue, and the fact that this thread was started with an invitation solely to people who wanted to a merger, but ignored people like Pkravchenko who opposed one is highly suspicious, and smacks of recruitment. Why hasn't every user on this page been pung by the OP? μηδείς (talk) 04:44, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

I was not aware of any invitations. I only saw the banners on top of the articles Pierogi and Varenyky. I never thought that dumplings may become a political issue worth building political factions (are there Big-Endias and Little-Endians here?:)). In fact, the main benefit which I saw in the proposed merger is due to the developments in North America where the term pierogi dominates and where it also seems to be used by Canadian Ukrainians for labelling their products. I suppose the article is read mainly by people who eat pierogi and want to learn about them. These people will only read about the Polish cultural background of the dish and probably completely miss its Ukrainian background. Such limited knowledge often results in some sort of intercultural misunderstanding, like I think half of the Western world believe that Russians say "Na zdorovye" for toasting. But I can also live with keeping the two separate pages provided all such articles (including Colțunași and whatever else) are written consistently. May be, one indeed needs a separate overview article on "Crescent-shaped CEE dumplings". --Off-shell (talk) 08:28, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

• Comment. I really don't like where this is going, and am considering withdrawing my support from this proposal. I don't think this is working out and I don't want any more grief.

Merriam-Webster (direct quote):

• varenyky - The word you've entered isn't in the dictionary. Click on a spelling suggestion below or try again using the search bar above.
• pierogi - a case of dough filled with a savory filling (as of meat, cheese, or vegetables) and cooked by boiling and then panfrying.[1]

Wikipedia http://stats.grok.se/ daily count:

• Varenyky - 90 hits on average
• Pierogi - 600 hits on average

Good enough. Poeticbent talk 19:55, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

• Support. Nobody presented any sources that varenyky are not just another name for pierogi. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 08:10, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

• Comment: I'm now confused as to which version is being "support"ed: the first or second rendition by Kpalion. As regards "Nobody presented any sources that varenyky are not just another name for pierogi" seems to imply a WP:POV that varenyki are just another name for explicitly 'Polish' pierogi. On the contrary, if you take a look at the google examples I provided earlier on in the merger proposal, you'll find that "Ruskie pierogi" is solidly supported by Polish language sources. That being the case, I could just as easily pose the query as to what RS point to the fact that "pierogi" aren't just another name for "varenyki". Sources, please? The second proposal by Kpalion which takes the onus off RS proof (which you're not going to find for any of these conventions) that this particular food is somehow 'owned' by any particular ethnic group involved is the version I would support as the Polish and Ukrainian versions are the same dish. The only way to avoid 'ownership' issues for regional dishes is to avoid arguments which can't be reliably sourced. As an aside, Off-shell, please allow me to qualify that Ukrainians from Western Ukraine use the name "varenyki" for the dish, not "pierogi". If you doubt me on this, I'm more than happy to provide RS for diasporic use in Canada (and elsewhere). --Iryna Harpy (talk) 03:53, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

Ruskie pierogi means Ukrainian pierogi. I have read many times that Ukrainians don't know such dish. "Kozacka Chatka" in Poland sells pierogi, warieniki and pielmeni described as similar (but probably not identical). [2]Xx236 (talk) 07:11, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

And I'll agree with Iryna's point, although I'll point out that Rusyn Americans traditionally from what is now the Western Ukraine (Trans-Carpathia) do not call these items varenyky, they are called pyrohy. This suggestion strikes me as about as useful as merging the flags named at tricolor under Le Tricolore, given the Italian and Irish flags are similar to the FRench flag, and the word means the same thing. μηδείς (talk) 04:55, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

Rusyn is sometimes different than Western-Ukrainian.Xx236 (talk) 07:23, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

Yes, and while the standard political position in Ukraine has been to demote Rusysns to speakers of a dialect of Ukrainian (and suspected disloyalists backed by the Russians) they where under Polish and Austro-Hungarian hegemony since the middle ages. None of this is directly relevant to cuisine, but it shows the cultural and political divisions. There are so many other ill-advised mergers this proposed merger would justify, Bubble and squeak > leftovers, Kielbasa > Sausage that it's a non-starter. μηδείς (talk) 15:52, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

Iryna, I'm sorry for the sloppy wording I used. Yes, pyrohy is a regional dialect term used not in the whole Western Ukraine but in some parts of it, mainly in Transcarpatia. Concerning the wording used by some commenters, I think "varenyky is another word for pierogi and pierogi is another word varenyky". I would not imply the origin of the dish in this statement, but would rather think that the term pierogi is native for the author of the sentence, or is more frequently used in English, as the above hit statistics shows. Now, concerning the second version of the lede, this is a modified version of the current Varenyky lede which is sourced. The current statement in Varenyky is based on the descriptions in the standard Soviet/Russian sources like Pokhlebkin, Kulinaria (1955) and many others, which call it a "Ukrainian dish", although you will find them in many places in Russia today. I suppose one can also find similar RS which call pierogi a "Polish dish". --Off-shell (talk) 08:19, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

Gawd. We're now coming up against the obsticles we're all trying to avoid: national ownership of a cuisine!

In response to Xx236, Ukrainians don't know of a dish called Ruskie pierogi (AKA Ukrainian pierog) simply because that is not the nomenclature in Ukrainian: in Ukrainian, they're known as 'varenyki' as the native name. They are, however, to all intents and purposes, the same food. From my own hands-on experience, just compare the recipe/s and it's self-evident. They're both considered national dishes per ethnic group, and this would account for literally hundreds of years of cultural overlap.

Ruskie pierogi were (are ?) called Polish in Western Ukraine and lwowskie in Wrocław after the war:

http://smaker.pl/newsy-krotka-historia-pierogow-ruskich,1897857,a,.html

http://www.national-geographic.pl/traveler/artykuly/pokaz/ruskie-czyli-polskie/

Xx236 (talk) 07:43, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

In response to Off-shell, my apologies if I came across as being curt about the issue. The fact is that we'd be hard-pressed to 'prove' any form of proprietorial ethnic ownership of this cuisine. This is where the exchange of cuisine for an area of Slavic peoples (just take a look at our DNA) was as natural as breathing (or spying on a neighbour through her kitchen window in order to find out the family 'secret' as to why her particular recipe tasted better than your own) comes into the picture. While I'm not proprietorial about my recipe for borscht or nalysnyki (AKA Blintz: another article in need of cleaning up), such 'secrets' were closely guarded by the lady of the house. The how and who are not as relevant as the 'where' aspect of the origin. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 06:04, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

The basic article is (or should be) Dumpling.Xx236 (talk) 12:14, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

Well, the dumpling article already has a long entry for the various forms under discussion here. Personally, in comparison to the other entries for a generic form of filled dough of some form or another (and, in fact, many forms of dumplings from around the world have no filling, nor are they exclusively boiled), it seems a little on the protracted side as it stands. As with other entries from around the world, it's dependent on there being dedicated articles per WP:TITLE for the specific forms. Halušky are also dumplings, but they are not as distinctly as recognisable a regional Slavic cuisine as Polish pierogi/Ukrainian varenyky. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 04:20, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

• Support merger on the basis of USE ENGLISH - as a native Canadian English speaker (and perogy fan and maker) I can attest that this dish is almost always called perogies in Canada (or rarely pyrohy), home to both large UKR and PL diasporas, and we do not make any distinction with varenyky (because this word is not used in the variety of Ukrainian that made it here!). Remember also that WP catalogues concepts, not words. Two words for the same concept. --Kevlar (talk • contribs) 20:17, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
• Strongly oppose. Please look into the template {{dumplings}}. It has several dozens of similar dishes. I am sure it can be compressed into 3-4 basic articles, with endless discussions which name to pick. I say, let regional variations be. This has nothing to do with 'USE ENGLISH'. If there are similarities, people may read articles and compare. If there are differences, the same. If experts note differences/similiarities, we can cite them. Otherwise your discussions here are nothing but original research. wikipedia is not paper to try and squeeze everything as much as possible in smallest space, with high chance of WP:SYNTH. - üser:Altenmann >t 20:26, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

  But you have to distinguish between regional variation and one thing being called different names in different languages. Are Stuhl, chaise and krzesło, respectively, German, French and Polish varieties of chair? No, they're just words in these languages for the same general concept of chair. The same with pierogi and varenyky; they're just Polish and Ukrainian words for the same dish. — Kpalion^(talk) 22:11, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

  • That's what sources are for. Please give an example of a culinary book which describes 'varenyky' but calls them 'pierogi'. Please notice that if it calls them "Ukrainian pierogi", then they are 'varenyky'. Please notice also hat if it does not call them "Ukainian", then how do you know that it is the same dish? Otherwise, by your logic, everything should be merged into the adricle "dumpling". Your example with chairs is inapplicable: we indeed do have varieties of chairs, but they do not depend on culture much. Whereas culinary is highly culture-dependent, and wikipedia has to reflect this. - üser:Altenmann >t 22:56, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

Sources

Let's start with dictionary definitions. Please note that what we should be concerned with is not what the words pierogi and varenyky mean in Polish or Ukrainian, but what they (as loanwords) mean in English.

Dictionary	Pierogi	Varenyky
Merriam-Webster	A case of dough filled with a savory filling (as of meat, cheese, or vegetables) and cooked by boiling and then panfrying [3]	(No entry) [4]
Random House Dictionary	A small dough envelope filled with mashed potato, meat, cheese, or vegetables, crimped to seal the edge and then boiled or fried, typically served with sour cream or onions [5]	(No entry) [6]
American Heritage Dictionary	A semicircular dumpling with any of various fillings, such as finely chopped meat or vegetables, that is often sautéed after being boiled [7]	(No entry) [8]
Canadian Oxford Dictionary (paywall)	Variant of perogy, which defined as: a dough dumpling stuffed with potato, cheese, etc., boiled and then optionally fried, and usu. served with onions, sour cream, etc. [9]	Dough dumplings stuffed with mashed potato, cheese, etc., boiled and then optionally fried, and usu. served with onions, sour cream, etc.; perogies [10]

As we can see, varenyky doesn't seem to be used much outside Canadian English, where the definition is identical to that of pierogi (in fact, the dictionary explicitly says these are synonyms). Searching in Google Books, we can also find a few books in English which mention both pierogi and varenyky. Several quotes follow:

• These filled dumplings – called varenyky by Ukrainians, perogies by the Polish – came to Canada with European settlers and are still made by their descendants (...) Fillings might include mushrooms, potato and cheese, sauerkraut, cabbage or even fruit, like plums and blueberries. — Rose Murray's A-Z Vegetable Cookbook
• Varenyky (Russian and Ukrainian: "вареники" – [varenyky]), or pierogi/perogies (the name taken from Polish and used by some Canadian Ukrainian people), are a kind of stuffed dumplings associated with Ukrainian cuisine. Some variants are also found in Moldovan, Belarusian, Russian, Lithuanian, and Polish cooking. (...) "Varenyky" are similar to Polish pierogi. — Ekaterina & Liudmila Bylinka, Home Cooking from Russia
• Different types of pierogi appear throughout Europe and North America, each with their own spelling (...) In the Ukraine pierogi are also called varenyky. — Jennifer Niemur, Global Potluck
• Perogies are sometimes also referred to as vareniki (or varenyky), which derives from a Slavic word meaning boiled. — Mark Morton, Cupboard Love 2: A Dictionary of Culinary Curiosities
• Vareniki (Pierogi) Making Direction. There are two methods of making vareniki (pierogi) (...) And so on, almost every instance of vareniki in this book is followed by pierogi in parenthesis. — Nadejda Reilly, Ukrainian Cuisine with an American Touch and Ingredients
• When Russians see pierogi on the menu somewhere abroad they expect Russian pirogi – baked brioche dough double-crust pie with savoury or sweet stuffing – but what they get is boiled dumplings (stuffed, that's true) that they know as vareniki. — Alexandra Grigorieva, Russian Food Words at Home and Abroad, in: Food and Language: Proceedings of the Oxford Symposium on Food and Cooking 2009

I hope this is enough to show that while there are many different kinds of stuffed dumplings in the world, the words pierogi and varenyky refer to the same kind of stuffed dumplings: semicircular with crimped edges, whith various savory or sweet fillings, boiled and then optionally fried, served with sour cream or onions. — Kpalion^(talk) 23:16, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

• re: "doesn't seem to be used much outside Canadian English" - invalid argument. We have thousands of articles for words not used in English (you may recollect "naczelnik" vigorously defended by wikipedians of Polish origin from deletion). - üser:Altenmann >t 17:23, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
• Whatever your English sources say, there is plenty of cultural specifics that warrant a separate article for a regional variation. - üser:Altenmann >t 17:23, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
• And how they are that different from ravioli you want to keep separate? If you think "square shape", then you are mistaken. There are square varenyky as well. - üser:Altenmann >t 17:23, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
• BTW, DYK that what Poles call Russian pierohy, are known as varenyky Polish-style in Ukraine? - üser:Altenmann >t 17:30, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Nonsense. Poles don't call pierogi ruskie, "Russian pierohy". They call them "pierogi ruskie" because Poles speak Polish in Poland, not English. "Ruskie" translates from the Polish as "Ruthenian"... "Russian" translates back into Polish as "Rosyjskie", not "Ruskie". Do you see what I see? Poeticbent talk 19:35, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, I got my languages mixed. But what I wanted to quip about is still even more valid: "Ruthenian" in this context is even closer historically to 'Ukrainian' than to 'Russian'. So, what Poles call 'Ruthenian Pierogi', the Ruthenians call "Polish Varenyky". - The irony is of the same kind as in the fact that what called Russian Mountains in America is called "American Mountains" (Amerikanskie gorki) in Russia. - üser:Altenmann >t 15:17, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

P.S. Rissian does translate in Polish as Ruski as well, because Russian Federation is not the only thing Russian and not all English writers are so nitpicking, unlike those 'moskali' haters who are unhappy with Muscovy usurping the heritage of Kievan Rus. - üser:Altenmann >t 15:28, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

Altenmann, I believe I've done my homework, so it's your turn now to provide sources for the claim that "there is plenty of cultural specifics that warrant a separate article for a regional variation." And for square varenyky, too. — Kpalion^(talk) 21:04, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

I don't care that much. If ethnic Ukrainians ignore the subject (right now their major enemy is things Russian, not Polish), none of my business either. 15:17, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

P.S. Just out of my head, there are monuments to varenyky. IMO it counts towards WP:GNG of the subject, right? - üser:Altenmann >t 15:30, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

They are perfectly notable, but just happen to be better known in English as pierogi. Those monuments to varenyky that are labeled as such, are all located in Ukraine, so it's no wonder that they use the Ukrainian name. — Kpalion^(talk) 16:07, 24 September 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

In Germany

Is there any reliable source about pierogi being known in Germany? Most of Germans never heard about it. Just search for Piroggen (the German word for it) in Google in general, and in Google Books in particular. All pages will refer to Polish pierogi and Russian pirogi or pirozhki. The German Wiki article de:Pirogge describes all these varieties together and tells that these are East European Teigtaschen ("dough cases") (and also Finnish, as they also include Karelian pirogs in the overview). The dish may have been known to Germans who lived (or live today) in Eastern Europe (former Baltic Germans, Germans in Poland etc.), but I find no traces of it in modern Germany. The most common German counterpart to pierogi is Maultaschen, which are made with spinach, but they are quite different from pierogi. If no reliable sources are found for the presence of pierogi in German cuisine, the reference to Germany should be removed from the article. --Off-shell (talk) 20:34, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

• Either you have refs to back up your wp:original research, or you don't. And, you don't. I suggest you do some more mouse-clicking on your own, before investing any more time in trying to convince anyone. This is like saying that the presence of Pierogi needs to be removed from all national cuisines which have a different name for it. Thanks, but no cigar. Germany has their own recipes for them, like Poland has recipes for the Ruthenian variety. Check it out:

1. Pierogi Rezept - polnische Teigtaschen mit Füllung - Kuchen-hit.de
2. Pierogi (polnische "Maultaschen") | Ein Kochmeister Rezept
3. Piroggen (Polnische Teigtaschen) Rezept - Alle Rezepte
4. Piroggen mit Fleisch (polnische Maultaschen) - Rezept

Poeticbent talk 21:54, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

The name for pierogi in German is Piroggen. And they are known as an East European dish. You did not provide any link for a German recipe for pierogi nor any reliable source that they are widespread in Germany. I live since 20 years in Germany and have never seen pierogi/piroggen offered in any German restaurant, nor sold in a German food store. I only find them in Polish restaurants and Russian shops run by and for immigrants from Eastern Europe. Concerning your links:

1) All these pages call it explicitely "Polish". Where is any German recipe?
2) Which of these sites is a reliable source for associating this dish with German cuisine?
3) All these sites simply collect recipes from all over the world. You will find e.g. Peking duck on these sites. Examples:

1. Peking Ente (= Pecking Duck) Ein Kochmeister Rezept
2. Peking Ente

This does not mean that this dish is widespread in Germany.

The fact that some of these sites call pierogi Polnische Maultaschen does not mean that Maultaschen is the same dish. It is the same as when some sites call it Polish ravioli. People just use common local names for association with foreign products. --Off-shell (talk) 22:30, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

•  Done. Should be OK now. Thanks for the feedback, Poeticbent talk 15:06, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't think this can stay in the current form. There must be some reliable sources to keep it (books on food history, culture etc.). All these cooking web cites collecting international recipes and all these blogs are not sufficient. Also the association of pierogi with Oktoberfest coming from an American lady who recalls her German grandma is extremely dubious. No pierogi are served at the Oktoberfest in Munich (where the Oktoberfest actually takes place). Also the other linked reference is just a recipe posted by some user, and most commenters recall their Polish mothers and grandmothers cooking this dish. The German de:Pirogge article mentions briefly these varieties of "Piroggen" related to Germans:

• Kurländer Speckkuchen (Courland speck pies) which were made by Baltic Germans and are known as pīrādziņi in Latvia. They were usually baked (like Russian pirozhki, see e.g. here). One can find RS for this variety, but this is not for this article.
• Pirogen made by German speakers in Silesia. These are probably like Polish ones but may include spinach. I found so far no RS for that, and unfortunately, German Wiki rarely includes inline citations. Their articles about cookery usually rely on de:Herings Lexikon der Küche which is not available online.

--Off-shell (talk) 17:03, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

I updated the page accordingly. --Off-shell (talk) 18:19, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

• I see you're trying very hard to not notice the white Elephant in the room. It's OK. I don't mind the removal of the actual online recipies featured in the leading German food portals. However, I will look around to see what else I can find about the quote-unquote polnische Maultaschen given a bit more time. Thanks, Poeticbent talk 21:21, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

You should not cross the border of what can be interpreted as a personal attack. "Leading recipe portals" collecting international recipes, as well as Google searches in general, can be completely misleading if you don't know the country actually. E.g. if you type "чили кон карне" (Chili con carne in cyrillic letters) in Google, you will get over 70000 hits in Russian including "leading Russian recipe portals". This however does not mean that the dish is especially popular in Russia. Meanwhile I corrected and extended the information on Schlutzkrapfen etc. --Off-shell (talk) 07:00, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

I agree with Off-shell that we shouldn't treat recipe portals and blogs, where the content is largely user-genereated, as reliable sources. — Kpalion^(talk) 09:44, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

History information perhaps available?

So far the only historical information in the article concerns the appearance of vareniki in Russia which I put in the former varenyky article some time ago. I wonder if there are Polish sources on when the dish was first mentioned etc. I saw some websites (like this) which claim e.g. that "According to historical accounts, the Asian invention reached Poland in the 13th century, thanks to a relative of St. Hyacinth - Bishop Iwo Odrowąż, who fell in love with the dish when he first tasted it during his stay in Kiev." Some other sites say it was St. Hyacinth himself. Are these just legends or are there indeed such accounts? --Off-shell (talk) 16:57, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

Some websites (e.g. here) claim that a recipe for pierogi appears in Compendium Ferculorum (1682). A scan of this book is available here. Could some Polish speaker perhaps check if it is indeed true? I think I found it mentioning pirozhki on p. 23 (potrawa z pirożkami) and pp. 86-87 (pierożki smażone z konfektem różanym etc.), but no pierogi. --Off-shell (talk) 19:48, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

Hi Off-shell! Czerniecki used the word pirożki in two senses; it could refer to either yeast-raised pastries similar to Russian pirozhki or small dumplings akin to modern Polish pierogi. The recipe on pp. 86-87 is for the former: the dough is made from flour, water and yeast, the possible fillings are sweet (rose petal jam, elderberry jam, plum butter, apples, pears, poppy seeds), the method of cooking is either frying in oil or baking, and the dish is served as a dessert, dusted with sugar. On page 79, he also mentions the possibility of using puff pastry (known in Polish as "French dough") for this kind of sweet pirożki. The recipe on p. 23, on the other hand, is for a hot side dish to stewed meat; the dumplings are made from unleavened dough of flour and eggs, filled with finely chopped veal kidney with suet, seasoned with fresh herbs, salt, pepper and nutmeg, and boiled in water.

For a more reliable secondary source (still in Polish, though) discussing these recipes, see Staropolskie pierogi Stanisława Czernieckiego by Dr. Jarosław Dumanowski, a historian of material culture. — Kpalion^(talk) 07:26, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

Citation for varenyky?

Hello The806. Since you insist on a citation for varenyky in the 1st sentence, please, specify here, what kind of citation is needed. The end of the 1st paragraph includes 4 citations for varenyky. Note that the current article is a recent merger of the previously separate articles on pierogi and varenyky. The merger was done after an extensive discussion on this page (s. #Proposed_merger above). If you insist on removing varenyky, this will need splitting of this article in two separate articles again. In this case, you should restart the above discussion and reach a new consensus. --Off-shell (talk) 21:23, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

Hi, Off-shell. I've removed the tag and the unsourced 'Russian' spelling reference. The806 hasn't followed up with any form of response per WP:BRD, while the 'Russian' allusion is misleading as it isn't a Russian word (and if you were to transliterate it form Russian Cyrillic instead of Ukrainian Cyrillic, it would read a "vareniki"). Aside from that, the traditional Russian 'dumpling' of this style are actually Pelmeni: a different size; different fillings; slightly different, thinner pastry. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 05:36, 14 May 2016 (UTC)

Hi Iryna. The spelling "vareniki" is obviously adopted from Russian, as it often occurs in books about Russia. Pelmeni are irrelevant at this point. In particular, the reference, which you removed, uses the spelling "vareniki" as an example. The information about this alternative spelling is correct and important, as it really occurs in literature. It does not matter what Russians or Ukrainians consider to be their "national dish". Now, concerning this edit where you removed the refererence: please read that sentence to the end. It says that Russians expect pirozhki, but get vareniki. And it is this second half of the sentence which is referred to here. It explains that pierogi and vareniki are the same dish. So both your edits removed valuable and correct information. --Off-shell (talk) 19:07, 14 May 2016 (UTC)

Please take a look at how the lede looked prior these removals. The first reference is given a prominent location whereby it's offered as a genuine alternative to the transliteration of 'varenyky' for a food that has only gained a little popularity in Russia over the Soviet period. The second is a tag for a citation needed... for what? Please explain why that tag was helpful and necessary. Note, also, that while there's a transliteration offered for both the Polish and Slovakian pronunciation, the actual Cyrillic "вареники" does not appear in the lede, nor is it noted that 'varenyky' is a transliteration now used in the Anglophone world as one of the options for the English nomenclature for the cuisine dependent on whether the individual or company making them for commercial purposes is Polish or Ukrainian. Sticking a passing reference to the Cyrillic variant into 'etymology' does not address the fact that the foodstuff is signified by a non-latin script.

To be honest, since merging the two articles, this has become a hodgepodge of POV pushing. The lede should note that they are considered to be national foods in Poland and Ukraine. Further information for the lede would be that they have become popular in Russia, Slovakia, and other ex-Soviet satellite states, but such content in the lede is contingent on RS for the introduction and popularity of these foodstuffs in areas where they were not traditional cuisine.

Further to that, we've had Romania added to the equation (and they're not even known as either pierogi or varenyky there, nor do they come in the 'traditional' half crescent shape in Romania). As for being a Latvian dish, the only thing I can think of is Pīrādziņi (the equivalent being Pirozhki). Slovakia? Sorry, but where is there even one RS naming it as a 'national' cuisine? Yes, I know Slovaks make Halušky and Knödel (that is, knedliky)... but pierogi/varenyky? Wikipedia's articles on cuisine are fast becoming the equivalent of all of the other OR 'info' and recipe WP:SPS cluttering cyberspace.

Ultimately, it does matter who considers it to be a national dish because a word cropping up more often in another language is not a measure of anything other than the fact that it crops up in another language: a Souvlaki/Gyros or even a 'curry' does not become Anglophile cuisine because a thousand times more of that foodstuff is sold and eaten in other countries than in the country of origin. Oh, and do note that both 'souvlaki' and 'gyros' provide the Greek script spelling of the foods, as well as what the meaning is in Greek... --Iryna Harpy (talk) 22:59, 14 May 2016 (UTC)

The tag "cn" was originally placed by The806, and it was unclear to me what was meant. This user had previously tried to remove "varenyky" altogether from the lede, so I added a reference for the fact that pierogi and varenyky are the same dish and asked this user for the reason of this tag. There was no response as you see. The reference is one of those listed above on this talk page (originally found by Kpalion) where it was requested before the merger to prove that this is the same dish. I found it the best reference of those, but one can take a different one or several of them (or others). However, a citation for this fact is indeed necessary.

Concerning the footnote with the spelling "vareniki", it is not about the word in another language. It is about the usage in English. According to Google, there are today more books in English with spelling "vareniki" than "varenyky", and also more websites with this spelling (the difference in numbers is not dramatic, the numbers are comparable). Again, for this footnote, it is irrelevant how popular they are in Russia, and whether it is a national dish or not.

Concerning Russia in general, it is not a national dish there, but it is known there since some 200 years, and not just since the Soviet times. It is mentioned in one of the 1st Russian cookbooks, The handbook of the Russian experienced housewife by K. Avdotyeva (1846). The 1st edition of A Gift to Young Housewives (1861) includes 5 recipes, the 1901 edition has 8 recipes. Nowadays, one finds industrially produced frozen varenyky everywhere in Russia, e.g. in Vladivostok, 10000 km away from Ukraine. But again, it was not claimed in the previous version of the lede, that it is a "Russian national dish".

Concerning different spellings and pronounciations in general, it became a mess indeed, and needs to be sorted out.

Concerning the standing in the other countries, I cannot judge on it in full. Just recently Colțunași was emptied and redirected to this article. If this edit is valid, this requires adjustment of the lede here, because it is no more a "similar" dish but the "same dish", so it must be featured in the lede somehow. Concerning Slovakia, the images on Commons suggest that it is a quite popular dish there, but whether it is considered a national dish, this needs a reference. Here are some pictures:

• 
  At a buffet in Bratislava
• 
  Bryndzové pirohy
• 
  Bryndzové pirohy

Concerning Latvia, it is indeed not traditional there. I suppose it is known there in the same way as elsewhere in the former Soviet Union. Probably it is not necessary to mention it explicitely.

In fact, there are also other parts of this article which are not well referenced. E.g., the whole section "Poland" has 2 references which cover only a small fraction of the information. --Off-shell (talk) 10:03, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

The issue with colțunași is that we have no RS for these being the same food but, rather, variations on different types of filled dough/pastry with nothing to demonstrate that the shapes are anything other than modern re-imaginings beholden to pre-existing cuisine. Please look at the images for colțunași. Their shapes vary along with whether they are baked (more like Tiropitas or Lebanese and Turkish pitas with stuffings), or steamed, etc.

With regards to the varenyky/vareniki issue, you've missed the point of the Cyrillic spelling/name of the dish as not presented. Any demonstrations of differentiations in the pronunciation are by-the-by and can be addressed. The Russian recipe book (an in a recipe book for the Imperial Russian housewife) is not exactly a mainstream source, and personal readings of "russki" recipes is WP:OR remembering that Russians, Ukrainians and Belarusians were all considered "russki" as opposed to "rosiys'ki". There's also a recipe for Ukrainian pelmini in that recipe book, so I really don't know what it is outside of the equivalent of an old fashioned mish-mash for housekeeping for middle-class ladies. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 02:11, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

Would it be a good idea to add in the different names of the dishes from the different countries in the Etymology section? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kdlugon (talk • contribs) 00:11, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

Savory vs. sweet

Someone had added a sentence in the second paragraph to the effect that sour cream makes pierogi sweet and onions make them savory. I aver that that is just an opinion of one person and isn't universal. Pierogi in Poland and the US (the two places where I have eaten them) are often served with both onions and sour cream. Sour cream does not really make a potato pierogi "sweet" according to culinary tradition per se. This would indicate that it becomes more of a desert, which it does not. I changed it to make it more generic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.132.42.130 (talk) 22:57, 17 October 2016 (UTC)

Pierogi vs. Varenyky

I am from Ukraine, so I am confused of the article`s name. Yes, in Poland this dish is named Pierogi. But Poland is not the only country of Eastern Europe. Others name it Varenyky. By the way Varenyky is initially Ukrainian dish. Now about "Pierogi". In East Slavic languages it means or "pirozhki", or "Pirog" in plural. Naming Varenyky as "Pierogi" is as silly as naming a hot dog as a hamburger. So the article should be renamed and started in this way: "Varenyky, also known as Pierogi... " Sorry for my English 178.150.235.29 (talk) 13:43, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

Pointless discussion

From Polish point of view, this discussion is entirely pointless. Pierogi, Varenyky, Pirog, Pirozhki or whatever other name. There is another dish in Poland, called Uszka - almost exactly the same like pierogi, just smaller - different size and fillings: exclusively mushrooms. However no Pole will call them pierogi. Pierogi are pierogi, uszka are uszka. If there is distinctive differentiation in Polish between these two dishes, why articles Pierogi and Varenky were merged? Why not to leave different dishes from different countries, with their own specific names, to their own articles? Did anybody try to merge article about Alsatian Tarte flambée with article Pizza? --Matrek (talk) 04:37, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 6 external links on Pierogi. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130831213900/http://www.urbancookingguide.com/perogies-mushrooms-onions.html to http://www.urbancookingguide.com/perogies-mushrooms-onions.html
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120311051820/http://www.bigthings.ca/alberta/glendon.html to http://www.bigthings.ca/alberta/glendon.html
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20081206135720/http://www.active.com/special_events/mrst_2000/index.cfm?CHECKSSO=0 to http://www.active.com/special_events/mrst_2000/index.cfm?CHECKSSO=0
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20100919014724/http://cheemo.com/recipes.htm to http://www.cheemo.com/recipes.htm
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20151003221117/http://www.rudanskyi.info/spivomovky/stepan-rudanskyi-varenyky-varenyky.html to http://www.rudanskyi.info/spivomovky/stepan-rudanskyi-varenyky-varenyky.html
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120311051820/http://www.bigthings.ca/alberta/glendon.html to http://www.bigthings.ca/alberta/glendon.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 12:45, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

Pierogi - popular Ukrainian dish

Pierogi got into the cuisines of all countries that are in the article, precisely because of the presence of Ukrainian ethnic lands within their states. Therefore, pierogi are called "Ruthenian". VladOz (talk) 14:03, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

Only a variation of Pierogi are called 'Ruthenian' and it describes 'Ruthenian-styled'. Real Ukrainian dumplings from present day Ukraine are varenyky and they are already described in the body of the article. Please don't implement your POV information without discussion per Wikipedia policy. Don't claim a dish popular in all Central and Eastern Europe with uncertain but Eastern (Asian) origins. Oliszydlowski (talk) 15:07, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

What sources should I provide if in the article the sources say exactly that this is a Ukrainian dish, from which for some reason the article concludes that the dish is associated with Central and East European cuisine. This is Wikipedia:Reliable sources. VladOz (talk) 17:44, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

Then it is a poor source and needs to be removed. One database/secondary source isn't enough nor is it true. Oliszydlowski (talk) 01:29, 17 November 2019 (UTC)

This article became a battle field for nationalist POV. Here is an example, how the lede looked once, when it was more or less unbiased. It is a national dish in Poland, Ukraine and Slovakia. But in the current version, it is considered a national dish "especially in Poland", ignoring all cited sources. Also in other parts of the article, several passages with citations were simply removed with the time, because some editors think they know it better. --Off-shell (talk) 15:29, 17 November 2019 (UTC)

Can you provide authoritative sources that say that this dish is associated with Central and Eastern Europe, and not with Ukrainian cuisine, as stated in the sources of the article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by VladOz (talk • contribs) 15:35, 17 November 2019 (UTC)

The four sources stating that this is a national Ukrainian dish were provided by me at the time when there was a separate varenyky article (before the merger). There are also citation further down in the text about pierogi, as a national Polish dish (e.g. this and several more). They could be added in the lede. There is currently no reference for Slovakia that it is really a national dish there, but only that it is eaten there. There are references for Russia, Romania and Moldova (not a national dish but a widely known one). One can find some for Lithuania (e.g. this in German). --Off-shell (talk) 15:58, 17 November 2019 (UTC)

In this article says that they are of Ukrainian origin: "The were probably imported from the Far East via eastern neighbors such as Kievian Rus (today's Ukraine) perhaps thanks to Hyacinth of Poland (a monk in a Kiev monastery who became patron saint of pierogi). In the past, pierogi were more popular in the eastern borderlands of Old Poland than in the west". Eastern borderlands (Red Ruthenia) - ethnic Ukrainian lands, which was part of polish state after conquest of the Kingdom of Galicia–Volhynia. Further in the article, it is again reported that the dish came from the territory of Ukraine: "Ruskie pierogi arrived from a prewar region of Poland which is now part of Ukraine. Indeed, before 1945 Ukrainians used to call this particular variety of pierogi ‘Polish pierogi’. It is likely that “pierogi ruskie” were created by Poles living in Ukraine at the time. These pierogi therefore obtained their new moniker – ruskie - after WW2, when thousands of Poles were forced to leave their homes in Western Ukraine and relocate to the West of Poland". This link [11] also refers to the Ukrainian origin of the dish, but they were called "Polish" in Western Ukraine because they "were loved by the Poles", and not because they "were created by the Poles living in Ukraine". Also there are inconsistency with "after WW2, when thousands of Poles were forced to leave their homes in Western Ukraine and relocate to the West of Poland". It is rather about operation Vistula, when Ukrainians, not Poles, were relocated from Western Ukraine to the West of Poland. So, how can a dish be a national Polish if it is a national Ukrainian dish which loved and added to their cuisine by Poles due to the fact that Western Ukraine was part of Poland? — Preceding unsigned comment added by VladOz (talk • contribs) 16:50, 17 November 2019 (UTC)

In general: a dish can be a national dish of several nations. A "national dish" means that it has a special association with the nation or forms part of it cultural heritage. This is true here for both Poland and Ukraine. --Off-shell (talk) 17:39, 17 November 2019 (UTC)

Pierogi or varenyky are filled dumplings of Ukrainian origin[12][13], made by wrapping unleavened dough around a savory or sweet filling and cooking in boiling water, or pan-frying. Pierogi which consist of noodle dough and have to be cooked in boiling water are associated with the Ukrainian and Polish [14] kitchens where they are considered national dishes. These dumplings are popular in Slavic (Polish, Slovak, Ukrainian, Russian, Belarusian), Baltic (Latvian, Lithuanian) and other Eastern European cuisines (such as Romanian), as well as in Ashkenazi Jewish and modern-day American cuisines, where they are known under their local names.

I think the statement about the origin should be put into a separate sentence instead of a footnote. Something like "The dish probably originated at the territory of Kievan Rus (modern Ukraine)". This would precisely correspond to the cited sources. Further detais should go into the dedicated section "History and legends". --Off-shell (talk) 19:09, 17 November 2019 (UTC)

Chebureki

In addition to distinguishing with Russian Pirozhki, compare with Tatar Chebureki, which are popular in Russia. 31.204.174.104 (talk) 22:17, 8 December 2019 (UTC)Dmitry

Is there a source tying them together? Nyx86 (talk) 09:20, 11 December 2019 (UTC)

Pierogi or varenyky article

Two articles were united, because this is the same dish (mostly in the USA). There are links only on the Ukrainian dish varenyky, from which there is information, that dish associated with Central and Eastern European cuisines, but not Ukrainian? Wikipedia:Reliable sources. I used another sources (polish too), that say about westukrainian and kievan rus origin of polish pierogi. Famous ukrainian restaurant Veselka have pierogi in the menu, which associated with Ukrainian cuisine [15] VladOz (talk) 14:03, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

~@VladOz: - First of all, Ukraine is Eastern Europe so by saying "Central and Eastern cuisines" Ukraine is included. Secondly, there are sources for and against the origin of Pierogi, and the fact is that they originated in Asia and came by trade routes to Kievan Rus and from there spread around Europe. I do not see why the lead should be altered at all. If there is speculation in relation to the origin of Pierogi, the definite answer should simply be "disputed". Ukrainians aren't the only ones who eat them and "pierogi ruskie" (Ruthenian pierogi) are only one type of the dish which comes in many forms. Please respect that. Also, the use of only Ukrainian sources creates bias regardless of whether you believe they are reliable or not. Perhaps you should create a discussion or request that pierogi and varenyky be split for better comprehension. Oliszydlowski (talk) 00:40, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

~@Oliszydlowski:But there are only links on the ukrainian cuisine. If you are writting about Easteuropean cuisine, should be links to it. I added only polish sources, not Ukrainian. Ukrainian and soviet encyclopedian links was in article since uniting varenyky and pierogi article. If articles was united, it will be about pierogi (varenyky). Chinese origin have dumplings from all over the world, but nobody write, that italian ravioli have Chinese origin. Pierogi ruskie had varios fillings, but today Poles called ruthenian only pierogi with potato and cheese. Also pierogi in Polish cuisine arnt only dumplings.

But I do not see how these links fully define origin. I'd leave the origin of Pierogi simply out of the article. It already says it is part of Central and Eastern European cuisines (including Ukraine) and achieves a neutral point of view per Wikipedia:Neutral point of view policy. User Off-shell already responded to your claims in 2019 just above. Oliszydlowski (talk) 01:36, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

~@Oliszydlowski: But on what grounds do you write that the dish is associated with Central and Eastern Europe, especially with Poland, when you have a sources only to Ukrainian dumplings? Why not put Ukraine and Poland in the first place, where this dish is considered national (i added links on information, that dish associated with Poland, but you canceled sources)? The article should initially synonymize pierogi and varenyky (pierogi or varenyky), which is also referenced in the article (Oxford dictionaries), which describe these dishes in the same way. If there are dish in other countries, it does not mean that it is the national dish of this country. Article is about a particular dish, not about all Eastern European dumplings. Interestingly, Poles call pierogi, although baked goods, but the article is only about boiled (term varenyky, that better explain the cooking of this dish). I already shown quotes from the polish links, that tell about postwar spread of this dish from Western Ukraine to Poland. Of-shell has agreed to my edit, except origin at the beginning of the article (and only Kievan Rus), but i have new one polish source (from polish version) [16] [17] [18] about postwar spread of pierogi from West Ukraine. Wikipedia:No original research

@Oliszydlowski:, @VladOz: This page says: "Pierogi arrived on Polish territories in the 13th century. The were probably imported from the Far East via eastern neighbors such as Kievian Rus (today's Ukraine) perhaps thanks to Hyacinth of Poland (a monk in a Kiev monastery who became patron saint of pierogi). In the past, pierogi were more popular in the eastern borderlands of Old Poland than in the west." The page is maintained by Adam Mickiewicz Institute, so I think it is a reliable source. I didn't see reliable sources for alternative versions (e.g. where the Marco Polo version is treated seriously).

Now, we need to go into detail. There are no pierogi/varenyky in the Far East (except modern Russia to which they spread from Ukraine in the 19th century; and Russia was not in the Far East in the 13th century anyway). There are a huge number of different dumplings in China, India, Central Asia etc., but Wikipedia describes each dumpling in a separate article (see e.g. baozi, jiaozi, gürzə, khinkali, manti, mandu, momo, wonton etc.), and for each local variety, the local origin is specified. So in general there is a consensus, that filled dumplings originated in the Fast East and were brought from the East to the West (see e.g. manti for further references supporting this claim). So the source means in detail the following: such dumplings originated in the Fast East, were brought to Kievan Rus and transformed there into the local variety called pierogi/varenyky. From there it was brought to Poland. Thus the origin of the local dumpling variety known as pierogi/varenyky is probably in Kievan Rus (today's Ukraine). As I wrote in the previous discussion with VladOz, I would put it like this in a separate sentence: "The dish probably originated at the territory of Kievan Rus (modern Ukraine)". --Off-shell (talk) 16:34, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

@Off-shell: @VladOz: - Because the origin is speculative I would avoid placing that in the lead. I believe the current one is most neutral per Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. Moreover, in the body several theories are mentioned. I do not see the need for any edits. Oliszydlowski (talk) 16:39, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

• I agree with Oliszydlowski on the origin, there's lots of theories including Turkic influence, that it just doesn't belong in the lead. It's become a Slavic dish regardless of how it got here. I do want to suggest we maybe mention and bold varenyky in the lead? In Poland it is pierogi, but if you go east to Ukraine or Russia they say varenyky.Nyx86 (talk) 16:49, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

@Oliszydlowski: In the body, 2 theories are mentioned, and one of them (Marco Polo) is mentioned without reliable source, so it should be removed anyway unless a source is found. There might be a source mentioning it as a legend (e.g. as part of culture, not history). So far, we have only one historical version.

@Nyx86: This is how the lede looked like shortly after the merger with varenyky article. After that, there were continuous nationalist POV edits from all sides. At the end, there was more and more bias to claiming it basically a Polish dish (one example: in this edit, "especially in Poland" was added behind all references). --Off-shell (talk) 17:12, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

@Off-shell: The story of Jacyk tell not only about dumplings, but baked pierogi too, that have the same meanings in polish cuisine [19]. Pierogi appears in «Compendium ferculorum»(1682) [20] [21]. First Ukrainian mention of dumplings "pyrohy" was in «TRAGAEDIA, ALBO WIZERUNK SMIERĆI PRZEŚWIĘTEGO IANA CHRZCICIELA, PRZESŁANCA BOZEGO» (1619, Halychyna) part in Ukrainian mean "You will get enough pyrohy. We will boiled them in a pot; And in that we will fry pork rind. And what else would you want - We have a lot of what we will boiled". [22] [23][24] Term "Varenyky" to this dish was first mentioned in the "Eneyida"(1798)[25], but in the Russian source (that already in this article from varenyky article) "Ukrainian varenyky have been known since the end of the 16th century".[26]

@VladOz: It is interesting and worth adding to the article. I would add a few more refs: The word "vareniky" is first mentioned in Paleya (ru:Палея, 12th century, Church Slavonic (?), known in 15th century transcript), however it is unclear what was meant (vareniky and other sweet foods). With a clear description in Russian, varenyky appeared at the end of the 18th century (1785-1789), i.e. slighlty before the description in Ukrainian in Eneyida. As for the last Russian source mentioned by you, Pokhlebkin is not very reliable in his historical data, so I would not use this unless we find where his statement comes from. --Off-shell (talk) 11:51, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

Varenyky in lead

I tried adding this after discussion above, but was reverted. I propose varenyky be mentioned explicitly in the lead. This isn't just local name, but is also used in English to refer to the same dish when served in a Ukrainian or Russian setting (restaurant, home, or ready made). Unlike naming variants such as "pirohy", varenyky has different etymology. It is also a major national dish in Ukraine.Nyx86 (talk) 14:41, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

If it's the same dish, then it's a translation of pierogi into Ukrainian, and it isn't used anywhere near as often as "pierogi" in the English-speaking world. If it's a different dish, then it should have its own article. JimKaatFan (talk) 04:29, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

The word "varenyky" is part of Canadian English language. It is specified as such in Canadian Oxford dictionary. Therefore it is mentioned in the lede. --Off-shell (talk) 07:53, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

It is very similar, but with different traditions and associations. It used to be a separate article.Nyx86 (talk) 17:04, 6 August 2020 (UTC) sock

Of course varenyky should be in the lead. It is an English word, by the way, as it is in English dictionaries. If pierogi and varenyky are considered exactly the same dish, the name is different enough to be in the lead (especially as it is present in English dictionaries such as the Canadian Oxford dictionary). If it is not the same dish, the independent article Varenyky should be restored, since it was merged with pierogi without a consensus. Dan Palraz (talk) 08:11, 26 June 2022 (UTC)

Calling pierogi "varenyky"

@Off-shell: You recently reverted an edit with "Restored, as the word is used in Canadian English. This is a long-standing consensus". There's absolutely nothing on the talk page that says the word "varenyky" is used in Canadian English. In fact, the one person that mentions what the dish is called in Canada is @Kevlar67:, who states, "as a native Canadian English speaker (and perogy fan and maker) I can attest that this dish is almost always called perogies in Canada (or rarely pyrohy), home to both large UKR and PL diasporas, and we do not make any distinction with varenyky (because this word is not used in the variety of Ukrainian that made it here!)" In other words, the exact opposite of what you claim. Please revert back to including "varenyky" as a translation. That's what it is - the Ukrainian word for pierogi. JimKaatFan (talk) 22:17, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

@JimKaatFan: There should be none of that in the lead because then we will be translating from all Central and Eastern European languages. This is English wikipedia and the two sole names for those are Pierogi (the most widespread and accepted) and in some parts of Canada Varenyky (which in my opinion should have their own separate page) as the number of ethnic Ukrainians in Canada is greater. Adding "Ukrainian" to the lead will just direct the audience towards thinking that they are of solely Ukrainian origin, which they are not. Oliszydlowski (talk) 01:37, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

I'm not following the logic here. It's common to include a translation (and often, for multiple languages) right after the name of the subject of the article in the first sentence. Nothing about including those implies that the subject originated in the place the translated word is from.

As for Varenyky having its own article, I'm inclined to agree with you, but I would have to research it more. Regardless, one of two things is true - either they're not the same thing, which means Varenyky should have its own article, or they are the same thing, which means "varenyky" is just the Ukrainian word for pierogi. As pierogi is a Polish loan-word in English, and by far the more commonly used word for these dumplings in the English-speaking world, it's not accurate to say they're "also known as varenyky". They're rarely called that, and only in small pockets of the English-speaking world. If that's the direction you want to go, there's better ways to phrase it in the lead. JimKaatFan (talk) 02:19, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

@JimKaatFan: As already mentioned, "varenyky" is mentioned as a Canadian English word in the Canadian Oxford Dictionary. This is a reliable source. It is put in the very first statement, thus as an English word, not as a Ukrainian one (from which it was adopted into Canadian English). It can be that it became outdated in Canada, but statements like "I can attest that..." is an opinion of the editor / original research. It is also unclear how the Canadian Oxford Dictionary reference supports the sentence "among the Ukranians they are known as varenyky". If you mean Ukrainians living in Canada and speaking English, it's OK. But this has to be speicified. If you mean Ukrainian language, this would need a source for Ukrainian. But it would then also be incorrect to mention only Ukrainian name in bold without mentioning Slovak pirohy, Russian vareniki, Romanian coltunaci etc.

As for the question of having a separate article: there was a separate article, but there was a discussion here on this page, which resulted into a merger. There are source like this one supporting this. --Off-shell (talk) 07:26, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

Well, are you saying that varenyky and pierogi are the same thing? Or are you saying that they're different? If you are, it's probably time to revisit the merge. There was some strong opposition to the merger and I'm not sure the "support" votes presented any solid reasoning; it looks like it was mostly a case of "bah, I think they're the same, so I vote merge." JimKaatFan (talk) 17:13, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

The majority vote was in favour of merging them. As I said, there are several sources like this one saying they are the same thing. Did you look at it? --Off-shell (talk) 20:06, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

Slow your roll. We all know there are sources that say they're the same thing. And I'm pretty sure we all know that there's sources that claim subtle differences. And this one even says that "Vareniki" is the more commonly used term in Russia, while "Pierogi" is used in Poland, Ukraine and Slovakia. This one says they're prepared differently. This one, written by Russians, says Russians and Ukrainians say "varenyky" and Canadian Ukrainians say "pierogi". The point, there are different sources out there that say different things. JimKaatFan (talk) 12:37, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

So all sources which you found say basically the same well-known things: The word varenyky is used in most of Ukraine, vareniki in Russia, pyrohy in Western Ukraine, pierogi in Poland, pirohy in Slovakia. You say: "This one says they're prepared differently." Let me quote this source: "Next, is it varenyky or pierogi? (I’m not even going to talk about the different spellings of pierogi!) Pierogi is a Polish word, but other than that, the difference is tenuous. A dumpling is a dumpling. Varenyky are typically boiled, and pierogi tend to be boiled, and then baked or fried. But I’ve eaten both fried varenyky and simply boiled pierogi." So you interpret this paragraph as "they're prepared differently"? --Off-shell (talk) 21:26, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

Look, I haven't made up my mind as to whether these should be separate articles or not. And I'm sure you know that's not the only source that draws a distinction. Everything I wrote was after 5 minutes of Google. I'm sure if I dedicated a few hours to it, I'd find a boatload of sources that would help me make up my mind. JimKaatFan (talk) 22:06, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

At the time when the merger discussion started I was skeptical about merging pierogi and varenyky articles. But looking into the sources I became more and more convinced that they are the same thing. They seem to have the same origin in Kievan Rus' and basically the same recipes. There are slight local differences, but I didn't find sources which would draw a significant distinction between them. So I voted for the merger at the end. The common tradition developed probably at the times when Ukraine was part of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania which in turn became part of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. It remains puzzling why the two different words were used in Eastern and Western Ukraine. It is also worth noting that although these dumplings are different from baked pirogs or pirozhki (cognate words for pierogi), they often use similar fillings, e.g. pre-cooked meat, quark (curd cheese), or berries, which are rather uncommon for other dumplings. So they come from the same local culinary tradition. So either you find good sources supporting the splitting or we stay with the merged article. In the latter case, the current sentence in the lede concerning varenyky needs to be adjusted, because it is inconsistent, as I wrote above. --Off-shell (talk) 23:08, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

There's a lot to unwrap here. First, I would appreciate if you would back off with the aggressive tone. I think we both want to make this article accurate and improve it, but you're treating me as an adversary, and I don't appreciate that. JimKaatFan (talk) 00:45, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

Sorry, if it sounded aggresive. It would be great if you take time to dig into it. But please, do not simply delete the content without studying the subject before. This caused my initial reaction. In fact, the article is still in a quite bad shape. In particular, there is only little information about the history. There are already many links to Russian, Ukrainian and Polish sources collected on this talk page about the first usage of the terms pierogi and varenyky. There is quite much to improve here but it also needs a deep dive. --Off-shell (talk) 17:16, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

I agree we should mention varenyky in the lead. It is also used in English, usage depends on whether it is Polish or Ukrainian themed setting.Nyx86 (talk) 17:08, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

@JimKaatFan: Pierogi in Polish language means not only boiled dumplings, but all types of flour products. This is the same, that slavic pirog, but this article about popular dumplings. And word pyrohy or pierogi is Ukrainian too, because all Ukrainians call flour products "pyrohy" and we use this term for the dumplings on the West Ukraine too. I tried add information about use word pyrohy on the West Ukraine (composition of Ukrainian writer Ivan Franko "Pyrohy with blueberries"), but my adding was canceled. I think would be not bad to add information about kasha varnishkes(varenyk with porridge), which was borrowed by Ashkenazi (whose cuisine you deleted from this article). Even the name comes from the varenyky (varenychky)[27]. By the way borshch in English is BorschT because of Ashkenazi too, who showed this dish to America [28]. So Ukrainian pronounce of this dish is "just the Ukrainian word for (jewish) borschT" too? And maybe you'll open your eyes and see "wareneki" here [29] (sorry, but your deletions is so aggressive too)?VladOz (talk) 13:26, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

@VladOz: It's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. JimKaatFan (talk) 16:30, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

@JimKaatFan: Return the Ashkenazi and Ukrainian Mennonites, who borrowed varenyky/pierogi into their cuisines, when they lived in this area [30]. Kasha varnishkes should be added, like confirmation of the long existence of varenyky in the cuisine of Ashkenazi, that even a new dish was created on this basis. The etymology of "varnishkes" is interesting. It comes from varenyky or varenychky (diminutive form)[31]. Unfortunately, there are few links to Mennonites cuisine, such as the link you deleted due to the "lack of mention of pierogi" (there is mention "wareneki").[32] And leave varenyky on the top, because there was varenyky article and I also don't see any mention of koltunas in the Canadian dictionary (because varenyky is very related to Ruthenian migration to the United States and Canada, not Romanian or only Polish).VladOz (talk) 18:40, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

Your first link doesn't mention Mennonites at all. Also, mennoneechiekitchen.com is not what I'd call a WP:RS, not even close. Also, you still have not been specific, but perhaps there's a language barrier here that I am willing to try to work through. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. JimKaatFan (talk) 17:23, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

@JimKaatFan: Change to "as well as in modern-day American and Ashhkenazi cuisines". And add information about kasha varnishkes to body of article. I provided source to Ashkenazi cuisine. Your delete had "reference does not mention pierogi" comment. I know, that it isn't good source, but there is small amount of sources about Minnonites and their cuisine. This one not so reliable too, but there is information about kasha varnishkes too [33].

I searched, and I did not find any reliable sources supporting that addition. The fact that "there is small amount of sources about Minnonites and their cuisine" does not mean that we should therefore use a personal blog as a source. JimKaatFan (talk) 01:40, 5 September 2020 (UTC)

@JimKaatFan:, @VladOz: Here are several book sources for Mennonite vareniki:

• Mennonite Foods & Folkways from South Russia, page 215
• Treasured Mennonite recipes, page 169: Glooms Vareneki (here, an account is needed, but one create it and borrow the book for one hour free of charge).
• Mennonite Folklife and Folklore, page 56.

Several cookbooks are also mentioned in Mennonite cuisine. --Off-shell (talk) 12:31, 5 September 2020 (UTC)

I added a sentence about Mennonites using the term, and the two alternate spellings. I'd like to point out that once we're reaching for sources this hard, that are of mediocre quality and barely mention the term in question, we should really look at what we're trying to accomplish here. This is an encyclopedia, after all, not a place for ultra-nationalist promotion of one's ethnic background. As I am neither Polish nor Ukrainian, I can assure you I have no dog in that fight, and my interest is in making sure this article stays encyclopedic. JimKaatFan (talk) 15:12, 5 September 2020 (UTC)

What about Ashkenazi?VladOz (talk) 20:12, 5 September 2020 (UTC)

A good reference for pierogi/varenyky in Jewish cuisine is this one:

• Gil Marks, Encyclopedia of Jewish Food, sections Varenik/Varenikes and Pirog and Kasha Varnishkes. --Off-shell (talk) 21:54, 5 September 2020 (UTC)

Kasha varnishkes has its own article. I don't know what we could possibly add from the other two sources, as there's no content that mentions "Ashkenazi". JimKaatFan (talk) 15:17, 6 September 2020 (UTC)

"Ashkenazi Jews are basically the Jews who lived or are still living in Central and Eastern Europe, from Germany via Poland to Ukraine, Belarus and Russia, as well as their descendants living in the US, Canada, Australia etc. It is the largest group of Jews today (60-70% of Jews worldwide). Everything written about Varenikes, Pirog etc. in the Encyclopedia of Jewish Food is about the cuisine of Ashkenazi Jews. Other prominent groups are Sephardic Jews (those who lived in Spain, France, Italy,...) and Mizrahi Jews who live(d) in the Middle East. These groups have no historical connection to Eastern Europe. --Off-shell (talk) 16:37, 6 September 2020 (UTC)

I know what Ashkenazi Jews are, thanks. If you knew me personally you would be embarrassed that you felt you had to explain all of that.. JimKaatFan (talk) 23:17, 6 September 2020 (UTC)

Schlutzkrapfen has its own article too, but it is in this article. And this dish hasn't any common with pierogi (but kasha varnishkes originates from varenyky). Its like ravioli.VladOz (talk) 16:48, 6 September 2020 (UTC)

@JimKaatFan: Oy vey :), then one could just add that pierogi / varenyky have also been cooked by Ashkenazy Jews. This is basically what these sections of the Encyclopedia tell us. The Polish Jews called it pirogen, while the Ukrainian Jews called it varenikes or varnishkes. So they adopted the names from their respective neighbours. --Off-shell (talk) 19:35, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

You'd need an explicit statement to that effect from a reliable source. I'm not saying it isn't true; of course Ashkenazi Jews probably cooked pierogi, but part of what determines what makes the cut is, is it mentioned in a reliable source? Deducing it from the presence of a word in one book amounts to WP:SYNTHESIS. Anyway, there's got to be a better source than that, somewhere. JimKaatFan (talk) 19:58, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

Gil Marks is a well-known writer, and this encyclopedia is surely a reliable source! It is cited in many articles on Jewish cuisine. --Off-shell (talk) 20:29, 8 September 2020 (UTC)

I don't know what you're replying to here. I said we don't create entire statements of fact that are deduced from the presence of a word in one book, because that's WP:SYNTHESIS. JimKaatFan (talk) 20:35, 8 September 2020 (UTC)

There must be some misunderstanding here. This encyclopedia has entire chapters called Varenik/Varenikes and Pirog. Here is an excerpt from Varenik/Varenikes: "Varenikes are quintessential Ukrainian comfort food, inspiring songs and memories. In 1954, Mark Olf, one of America's most prominent Yiddish singers and composers, recorded the song, "Die Mame kacht Varenikes" (The Mama Cooks the Varenikes). The contemporary Israel-based singer and musician Samson Kemelmakher, who was born in Moldova in the former Soviet Union in 1953, began his Yiddish song, "Yidishe Maykholim" (Jewish Foods) with the line "Varnishkes mit kaese un mit puter [noodles with cheese and with butter], on Shavuot, my mother gave me..." And here is an excerpt from Pirog: "Pirog (pirogen/pirogn plural) is the Yiddish variation of the filled half-moon-shaped boiled pasta. Jewish fruit-filled versions are sometimes called varenikes." And one more paragraph from the same chapter: "In the early twentieth century, pirogen became a favorite dish at Catskills resorts and various Jewish cafeterias and luncheonettes in New York City, from Ratner's on the Lower East Side to Famous Dairy Restaurant on the Upper West Side and, in between in the garment district, Dubrow's Cafeteria, all of which closed towards the end of the twentieth century in the face of rising real estate prices and changing tastes in food." --Off-shell (talk) 21:02, 8 September 2020 (UTC)

It is obvious that "varenyky" should be in the lead as well, for the reasons so many users have already pointed out. It is an English word like pierogi, with both being found in English dictionaries. For now, I am putting a mention to "varenyky" only in the second paragraph of the article, but if that gets reverted too, I will ask for third-opinions that I am sure will agree that varenyky should be in the first sentence of the article, as alternative names always do. Unless we agree that it is not exactly the same dish, in which case the independent article Varenyky should be restored, since it was merged with pierogi without a consensus. Dan Palraz (talk) 08:21, 26 June 2022 (UTC)

Vareniki isn't Russian

@Horope: Why did you delete source on the Pokhlyobkin? This is reliable source, he is the most famous researcher of Russian and soviet cuisine. Russian don't mentioned vareniki like their national dish, all Russian sources called dish Ukrainian or Malorussian, so your edit is vandalism, not mine. And in Polish cuisine pierogi have two meanings, which one is the same with slavic pirog...

@VladOz: I did not delete any sources. If I have, then you can add it back. Secondly, yes Vareniki is indeed Ukrainian, but Russia has adopted it. Please read the para I added here, there is not a single mention of vareniki being Russian here:

"Traditional Russian pirogí and pirozhkí sound similar to Polish pierogi but are different dishes. Russian adopted Ukrainian-style Vareniki are most often filled with potatoes (sometimes mixed with mushrooms), quark cheese, cabbage, beef, and berries. They can be topped with fried onions and bacon, or butter, and served with sour cream. The Russian counterparts called pelʹméni are significantly different; they are smaller, shaped differently and usually filled with raw meat."

I explained what there is to explain. Horope (talk) 17:47, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

@Horope: Really? You removed statement with reliable source on the Pokhlyobkin, back Russia to the list countries, with which "this dish associated" (in Russia dish associate with Ukrainian cuisine) and called this vandalism. Sentence "Traditional Russian pirogí and pirozhkí sound similar to Polish pierogi but are different dishes" isn't correct too, because in the Polish cuisine pierogi mean the same thing - slavic pirog. This one simply boiled pierog, like there are baked and fried too.

Pierogis in the baltics

They’re served there traditionally 2600:1000:B16E:691B:519:6070:ECE2:942D (talk) 03:53, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

China

@Merangs: I don't think, that statement about origin of all dumplings must be in the lead (in Origins it's ok) of the article about pierogi. Article about Italian ravioli even don't have any information of Chinese origin, only about Italian.

I see your point, but are ravioli of Chinese/Asian origin? Merangs (talk)

@Merangs:Read source: "Ojczyzną pierogów są bowiem Chiny. Do Europy, konkretnie do Włoch, zostały przywiezione przez Marco Polo".VladOz (talk) 20:35, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

Agreed, of course pierogi aren't originally from China; dumplings are. Dan Palraz (talk) 08:14, 26 June 2022 (UTC)

Pierogis- a Polish Staple

With no doubt that pierogis, ravioli, empanadas, Australian meat pies, dumplings, or any stuffed dough/ pasta in their basic form "originated" in China..... not ONCE was Poland given the notoriety it deserves for making Pierogi, "PIEROGI". The basic recipe provided, is beyond incorrect. Perhaps a bit more research would help in better defining and describing such a staple dish in the Polish community, especially the American/ Polish community. Thank you 71.86.60.127 (talk) 09:33, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• ВареникСиньки.JPG

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 16:36, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

Pierogi is Polish

That's all. "Pierogi ruskie" derives from the Ruskie Voivodeship/Ruthenian Voivodeship which then (from the 14th to the 18th century and from 1918 to 1939) denoted Red Ruthenia, which was the triangle between the Polish cities of Lwów-Przemyśl-Lublin. Varenyky do not come in this variety, they are only filled with either potato or cheese, not both. Pierogi as we know them are a Polish dish and a wiki page dedicated to pierogi should be dedicated to pierogi and nothing else. Make a page about varenyky etc. all you want but pierogi is pierogi: a Polish staple. Furthermore, Ukraine wasn't a state of its own until a short stint between 1919 and 1920 and since 1991 (unless you count the Ukrainian SSR as a Ukrainian state). This land was Poland and Polish was the prestigious culture, Poles were also richer. The culture trickled down from Poles to Ukrainians and not the other way round. It also helps explain why Ukrainians know potato-only "varenyky" and Poles don't—Ukrainians were and are more impoverished. 79.191.153.71 (talk) 08:35, 30 July 2023 (UTC)

You ought to read back through this talk page to see how consensus was gained, and provide sources if you want to re-examine the consensus. Responding to your edit here,[34] the articles were merged following consensus to do so. Responding to this edit,[35] I'm not sure why the article on Ravioli is a "standard" that this article has to follow, don't see any such consensus. FutureFlowsLoveYou (talk) 11:18, 30 July 2023 (UTC)

Because ravioli is as Asian as pierogi is. So... 79.191.153.71 (talk) 15:40, 30 July 2023 (UTC)

Ravioli also has Asian origins. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:48, 30 July 2023 (UTC)

That's exactly my point. And since its origin is listed as Italy in its infobox, there is a lack of consequence here 79.191.153.71 (talk) 06:46, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

You are more than welcome to amend the inbox over there if you have an appropriate source. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:09, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

Again, check out the ravioli page. I don't have to provide a source for something that will simply disappear. Got it? 79.191.153.71 (talk) 10:07, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

Ravioli page isn't the supreme court of dumpling related pages. Don't understand the second part of your comment. FutureFlowsLoveYou (talk) 11:07, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

The WP has to be consistent. I know arguments can be made that it cannot be 100% consistent. But we should strive to keep the minimal standards otherwise it just looks weird, like there's an anti-Eastern Europe or anti-Polish specifically bias. Let's not be like that and keep everything equal and just. 79.191.153.71 (talk) 13:54, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

Please change your reference removing edit[36] back to the WP:STATUSQUO, as the discussion hasn't concluded yet.

You've yet to provide any sources or substantive reasons for your edits, and the anti-nationality/region bias is not apparent. No guideline forces Pierogi's infobox to be copied after Ravioli, regardless of how Ravioli does things. Contents of the Infobox are determined through its article talk page, as seen at Help:Infobox. Infoboxes reflect their articles, including Pierogi. For example, Pierogi#Origins mentions Asia and China quite a fair bit when covering its origins. FutureFlowsLoveYou (talk) 16:01, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

Does Ravioli mention Marco Polo and Asia? There are no dumplings like pierogi precisely, in Asia. And we're on the talk page right here. And you're yet to make an argument, while I already have. 79.191.153.71 (talk) 03:17, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

Please stop ignoring my replies. There is no rule that says Pierogi needs to remove content because Ravioli doesn't say the same thing.. It's not a rule just because you say it is.. FutureFlowsLoveYou (talk) 12:28, 4 August 2023 (UTC)