Talk:List of people from the Basque Country

Miscellaneous

Luce Irigaray, feminist philosopher
Jose Maria Olazabal, golfer
Roland Orzabal, musician, Tears for Fears
Etienne de Silhouette, cabinet minister, France

How Basque is Silhouette? He is from Limoges. --Error 00:38, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

His name apparently comes from the Basque 'Zulueta'. There are only a few words in English that derive from Basque, & 'silhouette' is one of them. --Adamgarrigus 15:46, 2005 Jun 16 (UTC)

Yeah. But we should be more strict than "having a Basque surname". Did he reside in a Basque fief? Did their parents? --Error 00:12, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I'm with Error here. Olazabal is Cantabrian, even if his surname is clearly Basque. --Sugaar 11:51, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Olazabal is not from Cantabria, he was born and raised in Hondarribia, a town in the Basque Country. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.42.117.9 (talk) 23:50, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Miguel Indurain, cyclist Unax Ugalde, actor Félix Likiniano Heriz , ETA´s logo maker Xabier (Txabi) Etxebarrieta , First ETA´s member killing somebody(a police) José Miguel Beñarán Ordeñana (Argala) One of ETA¨s TOP member, murdered by Spanish Unionist, I thik Batallón Vasco Español, but it could be AAA.--Ikertxo 07:32, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

Create those entries and add them to the list. Or add them to the list at least, and then make the corresponding comment here on why you think they deserve to be in the list. Hopefully someone will create the entries.

Also join the Basque Wikiproject --Sugaar 11:51, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Please help - doesn't Vasco da Gama's first name Vasco mean Basque? Wouldn't that make him one? We refer to the Portuguese explorers but the great sailors of that region are the Basques - they may have bean fishing in the Grand Banks of Newfoundland before Columbus! Still there place names survive.

No. Vasco is an abbreviation of the (pre-Roman?) name Velasco. The Portuguese word for Basque is "Basco". Neither of the surnames Vázquez nor Velázquez imply Basque ancestry. --Error 01:38, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

Velasco acording to the official webpage of the Basque Language, is a variation of the surname Belasko. Which could be true, since many basque surnames were changed to fit the Spanish alphabet, for example echeverria(etxeberria), Bolivar(Bolibar), or Landivar(Landibar). --chokolandivar 02:22, 03 August 2006 (UTC)

Belasko (Velasco > Velázquez, Vasco as Port. name) is an attested Basque and Aquitanian name (later surname) meaning "little/young crow" (apparently -sko was used then as now -txo: dimminutive). Bela (Vela > Vélez) was a variant of it (meaning "crow"). But now they are mostly Spanish and Portuguese surnames. --Sugaar 11:51, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

And for all that there was also a hockey player named Elmer Vasko.

Does he has any relation with Basque people or Basque Country? --Sugaar 11:51, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Does Pinochet really belong here? Pinochet is certainly not a Basque name. Even if he had Basque ancestry, the Basque people should disown him - Das Baz, 03/16/2006, 10:37 AM.

Andrés de Urdaneta, navigator, conquered the Phillipines with Legaspi.

Rafael Urdaneta, General, last president of the Republic of Great Colombia. (1830)

>>Does Pinochet really belong here? Pinochet is certainly not a Basque name. Even if he had Basque ancestry, the Basque people should disown him - Das Baz, 03/16/2006, 10:37 AM.<<

Hahaha ! It`s not that easy, dude. If a nation could simply disown those who brought shame upon it, the Stalins, Hitlers and Pol Pots of this world would be "disowned" by their fellow-countrymen in a blink of an eye. Would this change anything (except for ridding the respective peoples of their guilty consciences) ? The Basque Pinochet is not simply an individual who accidentally became an officer of the Chilenean Army. Among the European-derived landowner oligarchies of Latin America, people of Basquean descent were (to say the least) quite common.

I think that in this page there are a lot of people that, despite having basque ancestry, were not actually basques. You should remove many people from here , such as pinochet, che guevara... In my opinion, having a basque surname or ancestry doesn´t imply to be listed here. /anartz/

The Landetas

I wonder if Manuel Landeta, Imanol Landeta and Jordi Landeta could be included? --Error 02:36, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Can you document recent connection to Basque Country?

Wolfe Tone

I asked at Talk:Theobald Wolfe Tone:

List of Basques has this man as "people born or resident in the Basque Country and people born elsewhere with significant Basque ancestry." Is it so? --Error 02:17, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

No. Not to my knowledge anyway. Tone was born in Ireland, his family were of English (I think) origin. He lived in France for several years during the revolutionary period and the United States for a brief time, but never in Spain or the Basque country.

Jdorney 14:59, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

--Error 02:01, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I will delete Wolfe Tone from the list if nobody has any objections. Jonas Liljeström 15:19, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Wolfe Tone is hereby deleted. Jonas Liljeström 12:32, 6 August 2007 (UTC)Wol

Wolfe Tone has French Basque ancestry through the Bascom family line, but if the Bascom family does not qualify to be listed as per your qualifications for Basque listing, then neither would Wolfe Tone.

Bring Back Tribal Councils

In simpler days, Tribes would hold Councils that could in fact strip a criminal of membership in the tribe, of his tribal name, etc. It would be a good thing if those councils could be restored in order that the Gruzians (Georgians) could expel Zhughashvili, the Germans What's-his name, the Khmer Pol Pot, the Basque Pinochet (if he is really Basque), etc., from the tribes. It is not a matter of "guilt" by association, but the shame that such monsters defile the good name of the Tribe. Das Baz 16:17, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Proposal: separate Basques and people of Basque ancestry (diaspora)

It's not the same: I know that people of Basque ancestry in America, Spain or wherever may feel Basque and also that many Basques consider them Basques. But the more or less unanimous modern concept of Basque is one that lives in the Basque Country or at least has been born here.

It's surely cool that Guevara is a Basque surname but Che never had anny connection with the homeland of his ancestors. Many other names listed here are Amerikanuak (American Basques) or people that otherwise may have a very distant connection with the Basque country, often just genealogical.

I strongly suggest to clean up this list and include only Basques born/raised or living in the Country. The rest should be transfered to a separate list on the Basque diaspora. Else it's just very confuse.

(Btw, why is Pinochet listed as Basque: his surname is definitively not Basque - French maybe). --Sugaar 00:53, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

You are right: Including him in this list was vandalism. Let him be deleted. Das Baz 18:12, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

It's not so easy. Jesús Galíndez was a PNVer born in Madrid from Basque parents, who exiled in the Americas. Where do you put him? Iñaki Anasagasti was born in Venezuela, does not speak Basque, works (does he still?) in Madrid for PNV and identifies himself as Basque. Michelle Alliot-Marie probably lives in the TGV but is the mayor of a Basque city and parliamentary for Pyrenees-Atlantiques. There was an North African al-Qaeda operative (now in GTMO?) from French Basque Country. What about born Basques who emigrate or exile or go missioner for a long time? I think that the best is to comment as best as we can on how they are Basque (born, one parent, resident,...) --Error 00:16, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

[Placeholder for text by Sugaar 08:29, 7 November 2006 (UTC)]

Ana Palacio and Loyola de Palacio parents were from Portugalete and Deba. ISTR that the family has a house on the Basque coast. Actually, in the recent surge of cancer in Loyola, she was flown from the Basque Country where she was vacationing to Houston. I'm not so certain about their feelings on the subject.

I saw that you deleted Alonso de Ercilla from the diaspora section of the Wikiproject. From Bermeo Spanish pages:

Alonso de Ercilla nació en Madrid en 1533 y se crió en Palacio en calidad de paje del futuro Felipe 11. Siguió la carrera militar y formó parte del séquito real visitando así numerosos países europeos. El ansia de aventuras propició que Alonso se alistara en el ejército que partía a la sazón hacia América con el fin de , sofocar la rebelión de los araucanos capitaneados por Caupolican. De los apuntes y notas tomados en su estancia en América nacería a su regreso el poema épico «La Araucana».

Alonso de Ercilla jamás olvidó su vizcainía, calidad que el mismo Fuero le otorgaba aún habiendo nacido fuera del Señorío, de tal manera que con motivo de adquirir los hábitos de Caballero de Santiago pidió probanza de nobleza en Bermeo. No debemos tampoco olvidar los versos escritos en las lejanas tierras americanas añorando la patria de sus mayores:

«Mira a Bermeo cubierto de maleza, Cabeza de Vizcaya, y sobre el puerto los anchos muros del solar de Ercilla, solar antes fundado que la Villa. »

Depending on what is really meant, one could understand that Alonso was legally Biscayne.

I still stand for being open-minded. Remove Che and Pinochet but Ercilla and others should stay with a short justification on how they are Basques.

--Error 01:51, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I was setting the layout of the project, trying to make it nice and consistent. It's not any definitive decission and should be discussed in the Wikiproject rather than here. I just took a quick look at his biography an read: born in Madrid, dead in Madrid, lived in many different countries, so I considered him a dubious entry that needed some discussion. He is still listed in the discussion draft. But a I think that the Wikiproject, rather than an entry is a space for discussion, so you should discuss it there, even if I will likely give you the reason in this case (as diaspora Basque).

I didn't listed all the articles in the draft, just the most notable ones (on my POV, naturally). It's just an initial setup. --Sugaar 11:38, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

There are those who are basques de facto et de jure. And there are those who are children, grandchildren, great-grandchildren, et cetera. The proposal seems good and fair to me. Who agrees and who disagrees? --

Bryard (talk) 00:33, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

Pinochet

On the Basqueness of Pinochet:

General Augusto José Ramón Pinochet Ugarte was born in Valparaíso on November 25, 1915, the son of Augusto Pinochet Vera (descendant of Breton immigrants who arrived in Chile during the 18th century) and Avelina Ugarte Martínez. [...]he married Lucía Hiriart Rodríguez,

The genealogy of the Pinochets lists

María Antonia Urrutia Villagra [ya + 1806; h. Juan de Urrutia y Bravo de Villalba, y María Villagra Flores];

as a direct ancestor. Avelina Ugarte is from the Ugarte family from the namesake Navarrese place. She has some Arriagada [a variant of Arriaga?] ancestor. So his Basque heritage is quantitatively diluted. Don't know about his personal feelings or family traditions. --Error 00:43, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

It seems that the Ugartes were lords of the house of Arcioz in Macaya (probably Macaye, Labourd). --Error 01:00, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

As I see it, all the list needs a good cleanup. First of all, I would separate "List of Basques" as people born and/or settled in the Basque Country, as Basque it's normally understood, and then "List of diaspora Basques" (and would limit it to people of the first generations that still keep some sort of connection with their ancestral homeland/culture). So I would not include Che or Pinochet but others may be perfectly valid. I don't think that having Basque ancestry as such makes you Basque. A much more direct Basque ancestry is among many PP politicians, including Aznar and the Palacios sisters (originally Jauregui) or infamous inquisitor Pierre de Lancre (originally Rostegui)... but these people do not consider themselves Basques nor others normally do. It's just a genealogical connection, not an identitarian one.

On the other side I must correct my earlier statement that Pinochet can't be a Basque surname. I really don't know its origins (it could be Gascon or otherwise Occitan) but the -chet suffix could seem to be a French deformation of -etxeta or -aitzeta (Pinuetxeta? Pinuaitzeta?).

In any case, the Pinochet lineage is American since c.1700 and the other (more clear) Basque surnames that appear in the genealogy page you linked could well have the same ancient American antiquity. We need something more than a surname to define someone as Basque. --Sugaar 08:29, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I answered in the above section as it seems more organized.

Pinochet unless more info is brought to light seems too remotely Basque for the list.

--Error 01:53, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Bascoms

The Bascoms, including Remington seem too removed (from 1410!) from their Basque origins to be here if I read the Bascom tree correctly. --Error 01:00, 29 January 2007 (UTC) For 3 years we paid to have professional genealogists search the French graveyards and church records (births, marriages, etc.) No one with any link to BASCON, BASK'OMME, BASKOM (or similarly spelled surnames) exists. The primary source for "the French connection" to this surname remains the book from the American author who so wanted to belong with her friends to the Huguenot Society of America. The more likely connection with any French ancestors resides with the BARBEY family who came to Dorset in the mid-1400's, probably because the Holy Church at CAEN purchased one of the Abby's near Bridport, Dorset; similarly it is apparent that the D'ORNANT family found refuge there. BATTISCOMBE, BASCOMBE, BATECUMBE and BATECUMBE are common surnames throughout Dorset from the 1100's; e.g.; William de BATECUMBE witnessed the deed for the Abbess of Wilton, for the sale of the church at Swallowcliff, in 1180 AD. <ref> W.H.R. Jones: The Registers of St. Osmund (Salisbury). Rolls Ser. (1883), Vol. 1. P. 346-7. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.22.55.236 (talk) 01:31, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

Added Flags

I have started to add flags to represent Basques from Basque dispora. I have used this, [[Image:Flag of the Basque Country.svg|20px]] , to add in front of names of actual Basques from the Basque Country or to people born to TWO Basque parents. If the person is a Basque dispora I just put the flag of the country they were born in, in some cases where there is duel citizenship I put two flags. As of now I have finnished 4 sections but I have a horrible headache so I will work on the rest later. If anyone else would like to add them feel free to help.--Joebengo 22:19, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I have added all the flags except for Hisham II and Abd al-Rahman Sanchuelo because as far as I know they are not born Basque and not first generation Basques and there is no flag for Córdoba. I also added pictures on the right side of the pages, they are all Basques (born in the Basque Country, or born to Basque parents)--Joebengo 15:45, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Love the way the article looks now with the flags and portraits.Erudil 17:22, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

It is shocking to find people from the Modern Age with a modern flag or anti-nationalist people with a Ikurriña or people from Navarre with a Ikurriña. And you can't know if somebody is a Spanish or French citizen. Weird. --Error 22:18, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

I understand what you are saying here but this is a List of Basques and the reason that the flags were put there in the first place was to seperate Basques with direct lineage to the Basque Country and Basques who simply have a basque surname. If you feel something should be done to show that a person is either a Spainish or French citizen then maybe you can shoot out some ideas.--Joebengo 22:28, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

The Cross of Burgundy Flag is not limited to New Spain. It was the flag of Spain and the Carlists. --Error 01:10, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

I understand, the only problem is that I don't think any jon doe who would come to the List of Basques article would know that is what it is used for, instead they would much better understand the flag of spain but seeing is how the flag of spain is not being used for basque born people i dont see how it would be much help.--Joebengo 03:06, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

This article is a complete dissaster. Most of the mentioned people are not Basque at all. If having a Basque surname were the same as being Basque, having an English surname should suffice to be English (according to that, more than half of the American population is English). Only people living in the seven historical provinces of Basqueland and people from the Diaspora who consider themselves as Basques should appear in this article. Another question is that of the flag. Most of the Northern Basques feel French and a lot of the Southern Basques feel Spanish. In an article about Basque identity the Basque flag (ikurrina) is superfluous as it should appear by all names.

Vasconicus 11:30, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Vasconicus, this page is a complete mess. Maybe only basque-speakers should be flagged. --Kamitxu (talk) 11:50, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Changes by User:76.212.156.118

User:76.212.156.118 has made a lot of changes, and so far, requests to comment have been without response. S/he has removed the information for a lot of Basques without comment, and many of the additions have been less than helpful. For total works, see [1] [2]. As warned, I am considering a blanket revert at the moment. Thoughts? The Evil Spartan (talk) 08:06, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Uff! I would asses them one by one: They do seem somehwat capricious overall but some seem correct actually, like Arzac > Arzak (nobody writes that surname with "c", much less the famed cook).

Personally I favor the removal of people born outside the Basque country with no links to the homeland, no matter that they may have a Basque surname. Or alternatively to create a second list for the Basque diaspora: it's not the same to be Basque in the normal sense of "live and work in Euskal Herria" than to be loosely Basque in the sense that you have ancestry that came from the Basque country, maybe many generations ago. I know that the dividing line is not clear cut but one thing are Basques born or living in Euskal Herria and another thing people of other countries with some Basque blood. --Sugaar (talk) 11:03, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

User:76.212.156.118 My opinion:

For example;

Jose Maria Olazabal ,Golfer is from Hondarrabia/Fuenterrabia (Guipuzcoa/Gipuzkoa),10 miles from donostia-San Sebastian.I mean this is the heart of Basque Country.I dont know why do you discuss with people that are mixing him with Severiano Ballesteros that is another golf playes from Cantabria-Santander ,that is not the basque country. If you have doubts why dont you ask Olazabal if he is basque or from Cantabria.Or ask Severiano Ballesteros if he is basque or from Pedrena-Cantabria.

Pinochet's second lastname 'Ugarte' is basque ,and his family was from 'Lemoniz'area in Vizcaya(Bizkaia)-Basque Country in Spain.The 'Pinochet' last name seems to be from another area of France,because his 'Pinochet' ancestors were not from the basque french area.

More thinks ; Juan Mari Arzak ,his original gascon-french is 'Arzac',like many other gascon lastnames in the city of San Sebastian-Donostia ,but he changed to 'Arzak'.But it is know as 'Arzak 'restaurant.That thing is not important.Is the less important.

I dont understand how can you put people like Itziar Okariz ,...or some bad footballers.Nobody knows them.They are not relevant people.Somebody put them to make publicity like and advertisement.There also a lot of cyclist that are very normal or not relevant.Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.212.156.118 (talk) 01:04, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

USER :76.212.156.118- MY LIST-

Appart from the wikipedia system of editing that I see is private club and I dont understand how it works. This weekend has been the first time I tried to edit something .And I also think that perhaps will be the last time for me according to your sad answers and lack of attention ,erasing a lot of relevant names that cant be forgotten nor erased .And I also see that this all is a lot of work for you to read with attention .Or at least for most of you who manage this club.

We are in the eternal problem among basque people.Our lack of agreeement for advancing.Each one takes its way and we discuss again and again ,..,and this way we will never advance together ,excepting those individuals that outstand because they are great basque people ,for example ,like the following  :(Please study each case ,because they merit to be considered ).Thank you very much.

I would like to include the following basque people:

ALBERTO IGLESIAS FERNANDEZ-BERRIDI. COMPOSER.NOMINATED FOR OSCAR IN 2008 FOR 2ND TIME.

MARTIN DE AZPILCUETA(AZPILICUETA). ECONOMIST SXV-XVI

INAKI GABILONDO .JOURNALIST.( IN CASE YOU MAINTAIN 'AZNAR ZUBICARAY-JOURNALIST')BOTH OR NONE WOULD BE BALANCED.

SIR RAMON SOTA. BUSINESSMAN.

EMILIO AZCARRAGA VIDAURRETA.BUSINESSMAN. (SOMEONE HAS DOUBT THAT THIS MEXICAN IS BASQUE PEOPLE ?WHO?)

PLACIDO DOMINGO EMBIL. OPERA TENOR. MOTHER FROM GETARIA.(LAND OF JUAN SEBASTIAN ELCANO)

BEATRIZ ENRIQUEZ DE ARANA .COLUMBUS RELATED.

PEDRO ALTUBE ('PALO ALTO').CALIFORNIA BUSINESSMAN.(I read that 'Bengoechea' family started working in USA as employees of Pedro Altube's businesses before they owned their own sheeps, hotel,..,business )

JUAN MARI ARZAK .COOK.MICHELIN WINNER.

MARTIN BERASATEGUI.COOK.MICHELIN WINNER

PEDRO SUBIJANA.COOK.MICHELIN WINNER.

JUAN DE ESQUIVEL.EXPLORER.

JUAN BAUTISTA DE ANZA.EXPLORER.

FRANCISCO DE GARAY.EXPLORER.

CRISTOBAL DE ONATE.EXPLORER.

JUAN DE ONATE.EXPLORER.

PEDRO SARMIENTO DE GAMBOA. EXPLORER.

MARTIN DE URSUA .EXPLORER.

PEDRO DE URSUA. EXPLORER.

PEDRO DE ZARATE. EXPLORER.

JOSE JOAQUIN DE ARRILLAGA. CALIFORNIA GOVERNOR.

AMEZOLA .PELOTA VASCA.OLYMPIC GOLD .PARIS 1900.

MANUEL ESTIARTE. WATERPOLO. OLYMPIC GOLD MEDALIST.

ETCHEGARAY .PELOTA VASCA. OLYMPIC MEDALIST PARIS 1900.

XABIER FERNANDEZ GAZTANAGA .SAILING OLYMPIC GOLD ATHENS 2004.

ANTONIO GOROSTEGUI . SAILING OLYMPIC GOLD.

ALBERTO JUANTORENA . ATHLETE. OLYMPIC GOLDS.

LUIS MARI LASURTEGUI BERRIDI . ROWING OLYMPIC GOLD .LOS ANGELES 1984.

IKER MARTINEZ DE LIZARDUY . SAILING OLYMPIC GOLD ATHENS 2004.

DAVID LOPEZ-ZUBERO .SWIMMER OLYMPIC MEDALIST.

MARTIN LOPEZ-ZUBERO .SWIMMER .OLYMPIC MEDALIST.

ALBERTO BERASATEGUI .TENNIS.FRENCH GRAND SLAM.

DIDIER MUNDUTEGUY . SOLO WORLD SAILOR.

ALBERTO ORMAECHEA. FOOTBALL COACH.

JOSE LUIS DE UGARTE .SOLO WORLD SAILOR.

MARINO LEJARRETA. CYCLIST.WINNER OF VUELTA A ESPANA.

JESUS ALTUNA . ANTHROPOLOGIST .(YOU KNOW WHO WAS JOSE MIGUEL DE BARANDIARAN ?)

SEVERO OCHOA . MEDICINE NOBEL PRIZE 1959.

JOSE ECHEGARAY EIZAGUIRRE . LITERATURE NOBEL PRIZE 1904.

LUCILA,GODOY ALCAYAGA.'GABRIELA MISTRAL'.CHILEAN LITERATURE NOBEL PRIZE.

BENITO PEREZ GALDOS. NOMINATED FOR NOBEL.(WHERE IS HIS MOTHER FROM ?)

BLAS DE LEZO. MILITAR.

ANTONIO DE GAZTANETA .SHIPBUILDER .

ANTONIO DE OQUENDO .MILITAR.

MIGUEL DE OQUENDO .MILITAR.

JUAN MARTINEZ DE RECALDE .MILITAR.

ELENA OCHOA .NASA ASTRONAUT .

-->TO CORRECT : 'SAMUDIO ' INSTEAD OF 'SAMUIDO ' (THIS WORD COMES FROM 'ZAMUDIO'-->'SAMUDIO'. IT'S EASY TO DISCOVER *,..)

--> PEOPLE NON-RELEVANT ENOUGH  :

GAIZKA MENDIETA

MIKEL ARTETA

ROBERTO LAYSECA

MIKEL BUESA

ROSA DIEZ.

GOTZONE MORA

NOTE:IF YOU START TO INCLUDE NAMES OF AVERAGE SPORTMAN/WOMAN AND NAMES OF POLITICIANS WE COULD INCLUDE ALL MEMBERS OF THE BASQUE PARLAMENT OF VITORIA AND EX-MEMBERS . THERE ARE ALSO A LOT OF PEOPLE(HUNDREDS) ,ANONIMOUS BASQUE PEOPLE ,APPART FROM MIKEL,ROSA AND GOTZONE,WHO ARE ALSO MENACED BY ETA (PEOPLE IN POLITICS AND IN BUSINESS ,...)WHO MERIT THE SAME OR MORE BECAUSE THEY DONT TRY TO GAIN NOTORIETY WITH THIS ETA MENACE.

--> PEOPLE THAT ARE NOT BASQUE PEOPLE ;

-SEVERIANO BALLESTEROS. GOLFER.

Thank you for your attention.Have a good day !! ALL. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.212.156.118 (talk) 06:09, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

PLEASE INCLUDE BASQUE COMPOSERS;

== BASQUE COMPOSERS

    buber.net/Basque/Features/GuestColumns/dcc080119.composers.php

buber.net > Basque > Features > GuestColumns > Symphonic Variations on a Basque Theme: The story of the great Basque composers 

See bottom of page for user contributed notes.

Symphonic Variations on a Basque Theme: The story of the great Basque composers by David Cox

---

David Cox is employed as a writer and editor and lives in Ontario, Canada. David also contributes review articles to the U.S -based internet publications rambles.net and rootsworld.com, where he writes about European world-roots music, specializing in the music of Euskal Herria and Cymru-Wales. His hobbies include studying the Basque and Welsh languages and playing Euskopoli with his children.

Basque music is, of course, thousands of years old. Euskal Herria -- the Basque Country -- notably for its small population, can boast many composers of world importance. Many Basque composers were forced to work in Madrid, Paris and elsewhere, but others were able to work and teach for long periods closer to home. The greatest of all Basque composers never forgot, despite their travels, their attachment to their Basque homeland.

There are a number of composers from the Middle Ages and Renaissance whose names and work is known to us today. Juan de Anchieta (Azpeitia, 1462-1523) composed various masses, motets, magnificats and other sacred music. He was likely educated in Iruñea-Pamplona, and appeared in 1489 in the court of Isabella of Castile. He also lived in Flanders but returned to live in Azpeitia a few years before his death.

Javier Maria de Munibe Idiáquez From another well-to-do Urola valley family, Javier Maria de Munibe Idiáquez, VIII, Count of Peñaflorida (Azkoitia 1723-1785) had his musical training in Toulouse, where he studied violin and viola. He was a deputy in the Madrid Cortes, and helped found and build the Real Sociedad Bascongada de los Amigos del País, www.bascongada.org an early cultural association, formed in 1764. He wrote a number of operas including El borracho burlado and Comedia famosa, religious music, and zortzikos, before he died in Bergara.

Juan Crisótomo de Arriaga The first classical composer who comes into full view is Juan Crisótomo de Arriaga (Bilbao, 1806-1826). Arriaga's father was the church organist in Gernika. Like Mozart, Arriaga was born on a January 27 and his orchestral works recall the works of the Austrian genius. Unfortunately Arriaga died before reaching the age of 20, but had already produced an impressive body of work. One wonders what the mature artist would have created for us.

At age 13, Arriaga wrote an opera, Los esclavos felices, successfully produced in Bilbao, of which the overture survives. His Symphony in D, and three string quartets, written at the age of eighteen, were published during his lifetime. He also composed a second opera (Nada y Mucho), church music, and cantatas. Arriaga's music can be compared to the best work of the time. Those who have visited Bilbao will know of the impressive concert hall that bears his name.

Close behind chronologically were others including Sebastián de Iradier (Yradier) y Salaverri (Lantziego, Araba, 1809-1865). He began his career in Madrid, writing zarzuelas, habaneras, including La Paloma and El Arreglito, later incorporated by Bizet in his opera Carmen.

The late 19th century, and early 20th, was a time of great musical change throughout Europe and Basque composers distinguished themselves. Romantic nationalism and a sense of place were reflected in music. Countries which did not exist independently at the time (Czech Republic, Finland, Norway) found national expression in the works of such composers. This was as true in the Basque Country as anywhere.

Maurice Ravel Foremost though, among Basques, in terms of fame and critical acclaim is Maurice Ravel (Ziburu-Ciboure, Laburdi, 1875-1937). Ravel is a towering figure in music, but of special concern for this article is his Concerto in G major, which was conceived as a Basque Rhapsody.

Ravel, best known for his Bolero, intended to write a concerto, Zazpiak Bat (The Seven are One) reflecting his Basque heritage. Surviving notes and fragments confirm that this work was to be influenced by Basque music. While Ravel did not complete the piece, he used its themes and rhythms in some of his other works.

While Ravel's many accomplishments have been amply chronicled elsewhere, his Concerto for Left Hand, (written for the pianist Paul Wittgenstein, who continued his piano career after a war injury deprived him of his right), is an incredible accomplishment. As for Ravel, if he is often considered a French composer, it is worth noting that he was also a Basque, who never lost the ability to speak his first language, Euskara.

In the Southern Basque Country, Beltrán Pagola Goya (Donostia, 1878-1950) is influential as teacher of the greats Sorozabal, Garbizu, Usandizaga and Escudero. He was professor in the Conservatorio in Donostia for 50 years, founding the Orquesta Sinfónica there and writing Tratado práctico de armonía. He helped to oversee a tremendous period of growth in Basque musical composition, corresponding with the rise of a middle class in Bizkaia and Gipuzkoa.

Andrés Isasi y Linares The next generation also includes Andrés Isasi y Linares (1890-1940), and Jes%uacute;s Arámbarri Gárate (1902 - 1960), both of fast-growing Bilbao.

Isasi studied with Humperdinck in Berlin, returning to Bilbao in 1914. He lived quietly in Getxo composing music and supporting Basque artists, and died in obscurity. His romanticism has much in common with German composers of the same period, perhaps too German for the Basque audiences of the day. His style has been compared to Grieg, Tchaikovsky, Bruch and Korngold. His works include Berceuse Tragica, a work for violin and orchestra.

Isasi's Second Symphony, which was compared to Strauss or Scriabin, was first heard in Budapest in 1931. This is among the works of Isasi which seem to be enjoying a revival in popularity today.

By contrast with Isasi, Arámbarri incorporated a more 'Iberian' sound and has been compared to the Catalan prodigy Albéniz, among others. Arámbarri composed some of his most important works as a student in Paris and Basel. His Orchestral Prelude was based on three Basque folk songs. Eight Basque Songs is another of his notable compositions.

After his return to Bilbao he was primarily a conductor and is better known as director of the Bilbao Symphony Orchestra than as a composer.

José María Usandizaga Soraluce José María Usandizaga Soraluce (Donostia, 1887-1915) was another child prodigy whose life followed the tragically short pattern of Arriaga's. At age nine, he composed his first piece - a waltz - and studied under d'Indy and Dukas in Paris. Among Usandizaga's works were the Basque pastoral folk-opera Mendi Mendiyan, performed in Bilbao in 1910 and La llama, performed in Donostia posthumously in 1918. He died of consumption in 1915, at the age of twenty eight. Las Golondrinas, a drama lírico written in 1913, performed in Madrid, had wide success and considered unique in the zarzuela model for its scope. By this time Usandizaga was already suffering from poor health and, like Arriaga, we will never know what he might have produced as an older and more mature artist.

Aita Donostia Another figure of great interest and importance was y Aita Donostia (born Jose Gonzalo de Zulaica Arregui, Donostia, 1886-1956). He was a musicologist, an organist, and was one of key figures in the development of Basque music, combining curiosity and a rare talent. His dedication to Basque folklore studies was unsurpassed. Like Aita Madina, Guridi and others, he researched and arranged Basque folksongs and incorporated these into a concert repertoire.

Aita Donostia is associated with the town of Lecaroz, in Navarra, where he lived and studied off an on for half a century. He also lived in France (during a post-Civil War exile) and Barcelona. After his studies in Navarra and Barcelona, he learned Euskara as an adult while studying Basque music.

His beautiful Basque Preludes, a key work, was an extremely important series of such studies arranged for piano. These were originally pieces for piano, based on Basque folk tunes, and later orchestrated. These include Oyanian, Eztei-taldea, Seask'aldean and Urruti Jaia. The Basque Watercolours (Acuarellas Vascas), written in 1932, incorporated many ideas of French impressionism under the influence of Debussy, Ravel and Fauré.

He wrote both sacred music and music with a Basque theme. Both were incorporated in a choral piece called the Mirandola Ironworkers, based on a legend about ironworkers from Legazpi who worked on the Sabbath, returning the next day to find an impressive iron cross they couldn't possibly have built in one day. Aita Donostia's achievement was to bring to light the already-existing wealth of Basque folk music and lend it the prestige of an 'educated' treatment.

Jesús Guridi Bidaola Jesús Guridi Bidaola (Vitoria-Gasteiz, 1886-1961) incorporated a fair amount of Basqueness in his major works, especially prior to the Civil War. Also from a musical family, he was able to study in Madrid, Paris, Brussels and Koln, before returning to the Basque country as director of the Choral Society of Bilbao.

El Caserio (1926) is one of the best known of his zarzuelas. It takes place in a fictional Bizkaian village called Arrigorri. Although this beautiful opera was written and sung in Spanish, two earlier operatic works written and performed in Basque, Mirentxu (1910) and Amaya (1920) were of great importance to the development of Basque music and culture.

Although he had moved to Madrid, his beautiful Diez melodías vascas written in 1941, was another profound testament to his attachment to Euskal Herria, a 22-minute suite of impressionist Basque folk-melodies.

Guridi never lost touch with his Basque roots. As testified by his son, Guridi "was an upright Basque, filled with the spirit and vitality of his people ... capturing the sounds of a flowing river, the majesty of a mountain, the rustling of trees, or of a wandering txistu."

Pablo Sorozabal Mariezkurrena Along with Guridi, Pablo Sorozabal Mariezkurrena (Donosti 1897-1988) was the other outstanding figure of the past century. He was from a Basque family, but lost his ability to speak his native Euskara as his family had moved from Hernani around the time of his birth. He was a child prodigy on piano and violin who rose to the heights as a composer of a variety of works.

Like Isasi, his music was influenced by study in Germany. Like Guridi, Sorozabal wrote a great deal of music reflecting his Basque origins -- music that has great importance in the Basque Country today. Specifically, his powerful funeral march for choir and orchestra, Gernika, his favourite work, is significant for many Basques.

His works also include the choral Suite vasca (1923); Dos apuntes Vascos (1925) and Symphonic Variations on a Basque Theme (1927), produced in Germany. Two short choir and orchestra pieces, Maite, and ¡Ay, tierra vasca! also express Basque themes. His popular zarzuelas include Katiuska, (featured in 2008 in Donostia's Kursaal) and Adios a la Bohemia (with libretto by Pio Baroja) in the mid-30s. Later, though, because of his politics, Sorozabal's zarzuelas weren't often produced in major Madrid venues.

Sorozabal regretted his inability to speak the Euskara of his childhood: "because of the pressures of life and a centralised government policy we were forced to forget our language. I am ashamed of this and still hope, even if only at the end, to speak my dying words in the same language I used to express my first feelings."

Tomas Garbizu Salaberria Among major Basque musicians born in the twentieth century, Tomas Garbizu Salaberria (Lezo, Gipuzkoa 1901-1989) studied with Pagola and Iraola, and was organ professor at the conservatory in Donostia.

Garbizu's work includes his Cinco Canciones Vascas. He also wrote a mass dedicated to Pope John XXIII, an Ave Maria for soprano and orchestra, a selection of Basque folk song settings, an orchestral song set to a work by Bangla-language poet Rabindranath Tagore, and a work for harp, organ, and orchestra. His work also includes works for txistu, zarzuelas, tone poems, choral works and songs, taking his inspiration from sources as diverse as Gregorian chant and Basque folk music.

Aita Madina Aita Madina (Francisco de Madina, Onati 1907-72) studied in Bordeaux and worked in Argentina, where he was assigned by his order in 1931, and New York, during the '50s. Madina shows the influence of Ravel, Debussy and Prokofiev, but his work is fully rooted in his Basque heritage. His dates closely correspond with those of another composer, Meirion Williams, whose work in Wales covered similar ground.

His works include a Concierto Vasco for four guitars and orchestra, performed in San Francisco in 1970, and an interesting three-movement Basque Rhapsody. His harmonic arrangement of Aita Gurea is an important one for Basque choirs.

He suffered from serious health issues in his last few years and eventually returned to Onati in 1971 -- where his symphonic poem for choir, Oñati was performed, as was his Aránzazu. Other works include a Basque Christmas Suite, Agur Mari, for orchestra and choir, a Basque Children's Overture for orchestra, and the three-movement Orreaga suite.

Francisco Escudero Garcia Francisco Escudero Garcia (Zarautz, 1912-2002), began his studies with Beltran Pagola at the age of nine, later continuing his studies in Madrid, Paris and later Munich. By his death at age 88 his remarkable musical output was critically acclaimed worldwide.

Escudero fought for the Basque Nationalists during the Civil War and later was exiled to France. Some of his early works were lost as a result of that war.

Returning later to Bilbao, Escudero -- like Guridi before him -- taught at the Bilbao Choral Society. He later took over from Pagola, teaching in Donostia.

Among his best works are works on a Basque theme: His Basque Concerto of 1946 owes a debt to Ravel. His hour-long funeral oratorio Ileta was written to accompany a poem by Lizardi that ends "bihotzean min dut" ("My heart is broken"). Zigor, an opera on a Basque theme, took six years to write and four years to see performed in Bilbao.

Other works include: Concierto para violoncello y orquesta, Sinfonía sacra, Tonemas for solo piano, Fantasía geosinfónica and the opera Gernika, performed in 1987 for the fiftieth anniversary of the bombardment of that town. Aránzazu (a symphonic poem) was also well received.

Luis de Pablo Of this great generation of composers, Escudero was perhaps the most significant survivor into the new millennium, working various Basque themes into his sound. But the line continues: Born in 1930 in Bilbao, Luis de Pablo is perhaps the most prominent composer of the generation that grew up after the Civil War, but moved to Madrid at the age of six. Understandably, the generation writing music under Franco couldn't explicitly celebrate Basque themes as Guridi and Sorozabal had done previously. But the current generation is reviving Basque music in a new way.

Alberto Iglesias Fernández-Berridi Escudero's former student Alberto Iglesias Fernández-Berridi, (Donostia 1955) has made an impact with film scores, and interesting to note, his film debut was on Julio Medem's dark Basque film, Vacas. His film score in The Constant Gardener is perhaps the best known outside the Spanish-speaking world.

Gabriel Erkoreka

Ramon Lazkano This wealth of talented composers from Euskal Herria continues with such composers as the Bizkaian Gabriel Erkoreka, the Gipuzkoan Ramon Lazkano and Peio Zabaleta (Pierre Çabalette), from Behe Nafarroa, to name just three, all born after 1960, who continue to create new orchestral, choral and operatic works, for performance in Euskal Herria and around the world.

Suggested recordings

Claves (Basque Music Collection) and the more economical Naxos (Spanish Classics) have made the works of a full range of Basque composers available, including many of those named above. Of the Naxos recordings, Jordi Masó's interpretation of Aita Donostia's Preludes stands out.

Besides this, Il Fondamento (Fuga Libera, 2006) has recorded Arriaga's orchestral works on period instruments on a wonderful CD. Elkar's 2-CD Homenaje set of Sorozabal (Coral Andra Mari Abesbata, Orquesta Sinfonica de Madrid, 1997) was produced on his 100th anniversary. Maurice Ravel's work, of course, is widely available. Oldarra's Le Chant Basque features many stunning choral arrangements of Basque songs by these composers.

Suggested Web Sites

www.musikaste.com List of composers, short biographies, and list of their works: Euskara and Spanish

www.zarzuela.net Web site on zarzuela and its composers: English

www.naxosdirect.com Various Basque artists are recorded on this label: English

eu.wikipediea.org/wiki.Euskal_musika_klasikoa Lists composers with short biographies: Euskara

--- David Cox

User Contributed Notes /Basque/Features/GuestColumns/dcc080119.composers.php add a note Total number of notes for this page: 1 Currently viewing page 1 of 1 page of notes

johnochoa at hotmail dot com 26-Jan-2008 23:07 #6832

No se olviden de Pablo de Sarasate. Unos de los mejores violinistas y compositores.

  add a note  

Last updated: Sun, 03 Feb 2008 - 16:23:38

This page is part of Buber's Basque Page and is maintained by Blas Uberuaga. Please report any problems or suggestions to Blas. Eskerrik asko! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.212.151.141 (talk) 08:10, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

From Talavera de la Reina(Toledo) and son of 'de la Rua ' ..

Hi Das Baz ,

I appreciate your interest in adding more people to the 'list of basques' lastname 'Aguirre',but I think this 'Francisco de Aguirre' is a controversial one for many reasons and it is not adequate for this article :

- He is born in Toledo-Castilla- Spain that is 400 kilometres far any basque country or region. -His real first last name is 'de la rua ' -galician or portuguese last name . -His mother is 'Meneses Aguirre ' .Meneses is also portuguese ,but I dont know if you have heard that

- 'Aguirre ' is one of the most or the more extended basque origin last name ,there almost 'million/s' of Aguirre everywhere and Not all of them have parents,grandparents or great grandparents born in basque country or region or in America or Asia from basque parents,grandparents or greatgrandparents .

-The parents of 'Francisco de Aguirre' (Francisco de la Rua Meneses)were not born in the basque country and were not the grandparents or greatgrandparents either .

Toledo is a very spanish or castilian exponent ,and not precisely a basque man like 'lope de aguirre ' or many others conquistators in America whose parents or grandparents were basque people born in basque country .

So ,I think this 'Aguirre' as a very common or usual lastname could be ok in another list of spanish conquistators or in people from Toledo 'Toledanos' but actually not in the 'list of basques'if you COMPARE with other basque conquistators in that 'list of basque' . This person would be just another exponent of very 'Spanish' conquistator but it is very hard to considerate him, one from 'Toledo ',a basque for this list.

I hope you will understand this all, that's why I ask you to remove this one. I am sure you could find many other non-controversials to replace him in this list.

Thanks a lot. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.78.133.114 (talk) 01:44, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Das_Baz"

Legal nationality / Place of birth

I'm adding the flag relative to those persons' legal nationality and place of birth. In current geographical terms, most Basque people can be from Spain (Basque Country or Navarre) or France. I think it is important to differentiate that, especially due to the French / Spanish difference. I'm therefore adding that information, not removing any other. Escorial82 (talk) 22:47, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

An anonymous user keeps reverting those changes, without giving any reasons. His changes are based on his thinking that a Basque cannot be called a Spaniard or French, but doesn't give any NPOV reason for it. I think that such constant reverts can be considered vandalism; I make them explaining them in detail and no one disagrees in a constructive way. If anyone does please say it here. Escorial82 (talk) 10:10, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Your problem Escorial 82, like an employee or not but servant of the spanish government or administration or spanish nationalism that I think you are watching your profile, is that you want to impose the current spanish flag to many individual basque people of this list that they actually don't feel themselves or didn't feel themselves Spanish or Spaniards(whenever they lived) although they have or had Spanish Passport or Id .For most of them the passport or Spanish id or citizenship does not or did not signify very much like it does to a spanish military or spaniard. So for many basque people ,among them the vast mayority of politicians in this list , the Spanish flag is an official but alien and imposed flag ,because their flag is only the basque ancestral sentiment represented in the basque flag .And you are insisting in your criteria and notes about the spanish nationality or citizenship ,because they are/were spanish citizens,but you know that they don't/didn't feel spanish or spaniards.This is kind of demagogy you are practicing.

Besides,in the conquistadors area of this list , the current spanish flag is not actually the one used by conquistadors that it was actually 'croix du borgoigne' the maritime ,navy and army flag in the 16,17 and part of 18 centuries.

So ,please respect the true feeling of many basques (by the way ,vast majority of them,excepting two or three names in the list,are/were against present and past terrorism) . Mr.Escorial82, don't try to impose the current spanish flag that for many reasons is not a friendly flag for many basque origin people in the list , because it is actually an alien and indifferent flag. And this List of Basques is actually and mainly for people of Basque origin and roots and not for people of other origins (like Castilian,Catalan,Andalus,...)that are not basques and you know lastnames denote or show their true origin.

This is not the 'List of Spanish ' because it is the 'List of Basques'. So ,you had better not impose your minority criteria that is not the true criteria for the Basque People named in this list.

Thank you.

Primus cercumdedisti me.

Sincerely —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.78.133.114 (talk) 22:56, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Before you even try 84.78.133.114, you'll have difficulties accusing me of being a Spanish nationalist so let's not go there.

Although Wikipedia is a bit more flexible than your average printed encyclopedia, it's important to remember that it *is* an encyclopedia, not a nationbuilding site (in either direction). Irrespective of their personal feelings, a person of Basque ethnicity by default has a different nationality today as there is no Basque state. So displaying a person's nationality *alongside* whatever their ethnicity may be cannot be construed as propaganda. It's simply a fact.

Personally I'd rather we rewrite this page, splitting it into Basque speakers/people born in the Basque Country/people know to have expressed their ethnicity as Basque on the one side and people with Basque elements in their heritate on the other. That's much more important actually than this squabble over the flags. Amongst other things, what has not been considered is that in many cases from South America, the Basque surnames in people's genealogy may have no ethnic background at all but hail back to the habit of indigenous people/slaves/peasants being assigned or taking on their master's surname, in which case there is no relation to Basque heritage at all. Akerbeltz (talk) 23:23, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Dear Akerbeltz,

-1.Most basque people in this List,born in the Basque Country in Spain never would like to put their name joined to the current spanish flag.It is a Fact. So if you put their name in the list and you want to respect their feelings ,you have much more probability of being wrong if you put spanish flag aside.(It only happens in Spain,because in France they mostly admit French flag.But in Spain for your disgrace is the opposite sentiment).It is the current reality.

-2.The thing to do about 'basque speakers/people' or 'have expressed etnicity' is impossible.Are you kidding? .

The fact is that many of them cannot express their etnicity sentiment or feeling because they could actually lose their customers or their jobs.

-3. I don't have any encyclopedia ,but I have contributed a lot to wikipedia ,anonimously ,without identifying because I knew this controversy could happen.I have given a lot of names about notable basque people and link them to other wikipedia pages,..; Most of you, speak and discuss a lot but never contribute seriously .Some of them like Escorial 82, I really prefer them not to contribute anything ,because they only want to impose their flag in a country or in another that they don't really know almost anything about . There are also other kind of people around the world ,in Universities,..., also many international people studying or that have studied 'basques' ,but I don't see many of them here.Perhaps this is not a very serious encyclopedia.(Sorry)

-4.And about slaves /indigenous people ,..; I can tell you that in America this can be applied in big amounts to many others like those with lastnames from the 'British Empire','Portuguese','Castillian Spaniards','Dutch', comparing the the basque families or lastnames.

-5. And you can't deny that the lastname is the main source of etnicity or origin among the vast mayority of people of basque descent.If you deny it ,sorry ,but you don't know very much about the basques and their culture .

Sincerely —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.78.133.114 (talk) 00:24, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

By adding those Spanish / French or other flags I'm not denying that those people are Basque, that's what is meant by them being in this article. What I try is to differentiate them, as it is not the same, for example in sports someone from Biarritz plays mainly in French teams and vice-versa. For example, Lizarazu is a reference for French football, while Zubizarreta was the Spanish goalkeeper many years. As you mentioned, Akerbeltz, "a person of Basque ethnicity by default has a different nationality today as there is no Basque state". That also determines what they do/they've done in their lifes, again Ibarretxe could not be lehendakari if he didn't have Spanish nationality, or Otegi would have never been regional MP.

As I said, I'm just adding real facts about those people, and what Wikipedia is supposed to give is real data, not people's opinion. Escorial82 (talk) 10:13, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

I totally agree with Escorial here. 84.78.133.114, Wikipedia is not about respecting "sensitivities", it's about reporting facts as much as possible. That occasionally will involve stating things that people may not want to hear but that are true nonetheless. The Chinese government I'm sure is not keen on the Tibet or East Turkestan pages but since they report facts, they are there. Yes, I know there are Basques who will jump with rage when you mention they hold a Spanish or French passport but with all due respect, that attitude is as silly as that of a Turk who refuses to acknowledge the fact that Kurds exist and refers to them as Mountain Turks. 84.78.133.114, most likely when you cross the border you will show a French or Spanish passport and that's a fact. I will readily agree that it is your right to strive (preferrably in a non-violent fashion...) towards achieving a free Basque state, but until that happens, we must respect facts on Wikipedia, not feelings.

And I'm sorry, but if you base ethnicity of people solely on their surname in South American countries, it's you who does not understand the complicated history of surnames and how that relates to ethnicity. To give you an example, I met a Shipibo woman at a conference once who's first surnames were Bengoechea Aguirre - in spite of the fact that she is a full blooded Shipibo and can recite her genealogy more generations back than I have in my written family tree. An extreme example but very common in South America. Would you like to include her in the list of Basques? Akerbeltz (talk) 10:50, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

About the opinion of Escoria82 and Akerbeltz

The thing is that you are both defending the same version or opinion .It doesn't mean that you are right because of that. I know that you,Spaniards,are more numerous number of people and a lot of them like you could write the same as you,but definitely is the same thing.The amount is not important. I insist that the people who are of basque heritage in this 'List of basques' ,not spaniards(although some of them spanish citizens),they don't like and didn't like (whenever they lived)to see their name joined to the current spanish flag.And the problem is that if you are using or writing their names ,you should firstly respect them and you should not impose the spanish flag.

About Shipibo woman , I can tell you that she could be ok in the list because she has at least some basque ancestry or lastnames .Thus, she is better or suitable candidate for the list than many spaniards born in the basque country ,like politicians.You can tell that they are basque citizens,bla ,bla bla,I know they pay taxes ja,ja,ja ,(mostly 'sponsored' by the basque country ),specially among politicians ,with no basque heritage ,they are not basques they are merely spaniards.

Thanks. I am getting bored .See you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.78.133.114 (talk) 16:16, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

WP:V and WP:RS

Hi all. We have policies and guidelines to help us sort out "what to put in and what to leave out". WP:V and WP:RS are the most clearly applicable ones. Anyone wanna help me with a long, slow fact-checking chore? It's gonna take weeks, probably. I suggest that we temporarily leave everyone on the list who's there now, and check them one by one. If they pass WP:V and WP:RS they stay; if not, they go. All new additions must pass WP:V and WP:RS. Later! Ling.Nut ^{(talk—WP:3IAR)} 22:40, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Plan of attack: there are an unusually large number of images on this page. I'll try to verify the subjects of the images first... then work down the list alphabetically. Wish me luck! ;-) And feel free to help... Ling.Nut ^{(talk—WP:3IAR)} 23:41, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Controversy is not related to names ,it is actually related to the flags

Hi WK people,

I only would like to point out that the controversy is not related to the people or names .There is right now a great consensus on that .The controversy is heavy' ,but is merely related to the flags in this list.

Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.78.133.114 (talk) 23:52, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

1. Everything should be verified anyhow.
2. If the flags are controversial, delete all of them. They are unnecessary. Ling.Nut ^{(talk—WP:3IAR)} 00:02, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

The people themselves *are* also controversial, some of them anyway. This list was collated without much forethought on how to define Basque ethnicity and as a result there are some people on there which probably shouldn't be.

Perhaps the best way would be to work through them in batches of 5, listing them on the talk pages here to see how we can sort them. Akerbeltz (talk) 13:00, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

This list is gonna be on my radar for a very long time, probably months. I also have to clean up a boatload of articles for Wikipedia 0.7, so it will take a very long time to fix these probs. I plan to check every single name, starting with the images. I also strongly suggest deleting the flags. Ling.Nut ^{(talk—WP:3IAR)} 04:44, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

I tend to agree, other pages of a similar nature don't add flags either (cf Famous chinese) and while it looks pretty, it does seem to lead to even more controversy than Basque pages normally attract. Probably best to do without. Akerbeltz (talk) 11:58, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree that it would remove some controversy, but eventually some information should be added on the text of some people, eventually clarifying the nationality of those who aren't Spaniards. Again, someone who reads the article but doesn't know about the topic might think that they are all from Spain. That's what I try to do when I put the flags. Escorial82 (talk) 20:27, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

(undent) The flags are images, and images load more slowly than text. Having so many of them makes the page slower to load into your browser. That point doesn't matter at all if you have high-speed internet, but not everyone in the world has it... If these people are famous (and they should be; only notable folks should be listed), then they probably have biographies somewhere, and the biography will say where their legal citizenship is. Just go strictly by citizenship, which is a legal concept... You can say Person A is from Spain; you can even say Person B was born in Spain but is now a citizen of Iceland or Ecuador or wherever. But stick to the bare-bones, verifiable facts... If people want more details, they can go to the article about Person B. Ling.Nut ^{(talk—WP:3IAR)} 02:31, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

several changes

• I moved the images around; please make changes (but not too many)... I have no idea who is the most famous etc etc. I put Loyola on top because I have heard of him, and the astronaut because the advanced technology etc. is a nice contrast... Two images are commented out and so you cannot see them... there are simply too many politicians to fit in that section.
• I rearranged the sections and deleted the flag icons
• I will do more work on this later in the week; several things can still be improved. Ling.Nut ^{(talk—WP:3IAR)} 18:06, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

I think it's a good idea what you've done, although maybe we should rearrange things so that all the images can fit in, e.g. Ignatius de Loyola with the other priests, and not there in the beginning, or Eyharts with the scientists. I'll add some text specifying the nationality of the people who isn't Spanish, someone who doesn't know those people will assume that they are. Escorial82 (talk) 12:48, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

I don't think all the pictures can stay... simply because there isn't any place to put them! :-) Try to keep the most important people. Ling.Nut ^{(talk—WP:3IAR)} 12:50, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Moving the list forward

Following on from the renewed debate on who ought to be in the list and who ought not, I propose the following:

• split the list into two pages, this one and People with Basque surnames. The second page may look weird and not so useful at first sight but it would allow us to move forward without deleting loads and potentially creating more edit wars than a pottoka has hairs.
• adopt the following principles for inclusion on this list:
  • people born in the Basque Country (greater region)
  • people born outside the Basque Country (greater region) but Basque speakers
  • people born outside the Basque Country (greater region), not Basque speakers but self-identifying as Basque

Comments? Akerbeltz (talk) 16:42, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Hello Akerbeltz. Here's my feedback as you requested. I think that only one article on Basque people would suffice. Inclusion should be allowed as long as the subject already have an article of his/her own on Wikipedia, with no concerns on notability. Two of the three criteria you suggest seem fine. As far as I recall any person who speaks Basque is automatically a Basque (as per the very euskaldun concept). So that criterion plus the birthplace seem fine. The "claim to be Basque although neither born in the Basque Country nor speak any Basque" would hardly fit anyone I guess. One can't wake up in the morning and decide to be Basque, Irish or Japanese, and effectively be it. Even a Basque surname wouldn't suffice for someone to claim to be Basque.

Now People with Basque surnames sounds like a rather unusual and irrelevant list, but I wouldn't oppose its creation as it can do no harm. Regards, Húsönd 11:21, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Option 3 was for people that have some more or less distant link to the Basque Country but exhibit a "gap" in between. For example, there are a fair number of people in South America that have Basque blood that identify themselves as Basque even though their parents or grandparents didn't themselves.

I realise that People with Basque surnames sounds decidedly weird, the problem is that if we go through the list using the above criteria, there will be a 1000 edit wars because someone is bound to take exception on the basis that "Che Guevara" has a Basque surname. Which is why I'm proposing the People with Basque surnames page as sort of a holding page where we can park people that have a Basque surname until we can be certain that they do or do not qualify for this page. I guess I'm trying to head off trouble, otherwise we'll need a dozen admins dealing with this page... Akerbeltz (talk) 12:20, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Just moved this, sorry, somehow I ended up starting the thread on the wrong page. Akerbeltz (talk) 11:25, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Hi there, I just find irrelevant the People with Basque surnames category. For the Basque people category, the first two criteria above noted look fine with me, but the third is trickier, since I wouldn't consider an American born self-proclaimed Basque to be a Basque despite their surname, just an American of Basque ascendancy, or a "PhiloBasque" (can't find the word, someone keen on Basque matters and culture) eventually. Regards Iñaki LL (talk) 13:47, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Bascophil is the word you were looking for I think. I agree, that someone who just decides "to be Basque" out of the blue doesn't really qualify, though issues of cultural identity are compliacated. No, that category is meant for, how can I put this, people who have Basques in their family but there the issue of identity may have "skipped" some generations. For example, I have some friends in Argentina who have Basque gread-grandparents; and while the intermittent generations didn't consider themselves particularly Basque, the last generation in some cases has gone out to learn Basque and/or are sending their children to learn Basque. It's that tricky category I was thinking of. On the bright side, I don't think there are very many people in the list that would qualify for that category, so it's not likely to be contentious.

Since it seems that all people who have responded so far are in favour of adopting criteria 1 & 2 to weed out the list, I'll try and find some time to split them in two this weekend. Akerbeltz (talk) 13:48, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

PS Yes, I agree, I have misgivings about People with Basque surnames too. But can you think of a better way of preventing edit wars when it comes to taking out the people who aren't really "Basque"? Akerbeltz (talk) 13:49, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Ok, done. I have taken onboard the misgivings about the surnames things and done the following:

• Created People with Basque ancestors, which is more justifiable than People with Basque surnames. On that page all those formerly on this page that state in the bio that the person is of Basque ancestry are listed.
• On this page, only those remain which are Basque according to the agreed criteria.
• Except for a few well known Basques still lacking articles, I have removed all those without their own page as I used the Wiki articles to determine "Basqueness".

I'm sure there's some minor editing still to be done but on the whole the 2 lists work better now I think. Please, if you're thinking of re-including someone, please make sure you a) pick the right page and b) have a reference to prove it, otherwise we'll end up where we were before. Simply having a Basque surname is not proof of ethnicity. Akerbeltz (talk) 16:58, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Moving on 2

Ok, the rather radical work has been done (as stated above). 72.234.39.238‎, I'm not against the inclusion or removal of new/existing Basques but we really must try and avoid ending up where we were before. The ones on the list currently are all those which are clearly Basque, either documented by their Wiki page or by being highly notable and known Basques (esp in the Chefs, Musicians and Scientists sections) still lacking a page that are easily verifiable as Basques (if one had the time to look for a ref). Before we add/delete new people, can we please briefly bring them up on the talk page if they are NOT verified as ethnic Basques rather than just adding/deleting them? Let's keep things civil :) Akerbeltz (talk) 15:40, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Since you are dividing 'List of Basques' create 'List of citizens of no basque ancestry'

Since you continue dividing original 'List of basques' and thus deleting many people of basque origin or ancestry , why don't you create another list besides 'List of Basques ' and 'People of Basque Ancestors' , for people who are respectable immigrants but who are not of basque ancestry like 'Fito Cabrales(Fito y los Fitipaldis') , 'Fernando Savater', 'Ramón Rubial Cavia' ,.., who actually are of hispanic,castillian,galician or whatever parents origin although they are born in cities of the basque country like Bilbao and outskirts or vitoria. You can call it ''''List of immigrants(citizens) to the basque country of no basque ancestry''''. If not, you are creating a great confusion and lack of credibility including this immigrant people. People who live in the Basque country or Europe are mostly native citizens ,it is not like North America,US or Australia, where most people are immigrants or no native citizens. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.253.225.80 (talk) 23:35, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Please read the discussion above and think before you accuse people of agendas. Simply having a Basque surname proves nothing in itself. Akerbeltz (talk) 10:48, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, but this list is substandard for encyclopedic purposes

By "substandard" I intend to choose a nicer word for the one which is in my mind now.

How come is this article defining Basques by

"born OR resident in the Basque Country, UNLESS self-identifying as not Basque (e.g. people self-identifying as Galician or French rather than Basque.) OR people born OUTSIDE the Basque Country of Basque ancestry that EITHER speak Basque OR self-identify as being of Basque stock"

I mean, am I the only one who thinks this kind of definition of who is a Basque is completely nuts?

Basques are those born in the Basque country. No more and no less. I just can't see the point in listing here Javier Aguirre or Alfonso Sastre, despite the fact that they are included in this list based on the many ORs, EITHERs (IFs?) of the above definition.

Then some other day we can discuss what is the Basque Country, but, as for now, this is as inconsistent as it gets. A messy list which really-really deserves that someone took the topic seriously. MOUNTOLIVE _{fedeli alla linea} 19:53, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Missed this one. It's not that easy defining ethnicity and the above comes as close to what could be a consesus on it. The rationale for the individual points is as follows:

• born OR resident - that one is obvious
• UNLESS self-identifying as not Basque - there are many "immigrants" either from outside Spain or within Spain, often second or third generation who will simply balk at being called "Basque". So birth within the boundaries doesn't quite fit on its own
• OR people born OUTSIDE the Basque Country of Basque ancestry that EITHER speak Basque OR self-identify as being of Basque stock - the opposite works as well, Basques or children of Basque parents that have moved around Spain/France will often still identify as Basque rather than French/Spanish. And self-identification amongst Basques via the language is strong (the ethnonym used by Basques is euskaldun, literally "someone who has Basque").

That's how we got to this rather odd definition but, in spite of being odd, it has worked in the sense that most people who should be on the list are here and we haven't had an edit war for a long while... Akerbeltz (talk) 10:19, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

However, you're right about Sastre and Aguirre... they shouldn't be on this page. Sometimes people slip them in and I miss them! Akerbeltz (talk) 10:22, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Self-identification amongst Basques via the language is strong. Therefore, there are people without Basque ancestry who were not born in the Basque Country but identify as Basque because they speak Basque and consider Basque culture their. It is totally acceptable and is not considered cultural appropriation. Can such people be included on this list? Mapatxea (talk) 21:06, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

Bolívar

What about Simón Bolívar? Bolibar is a Basque name, and several other internet sources list him on 'famous Basques' lists. If he's not being listed, perhaps a sentence to explain why he's not primarily of Basque descent? 162.83.255.65 (talk) 21:36, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

He's already on the People with Basque ancestors list. Akerbeltz (talk) 22:29, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Edit war over redlinks

Suggestion guys? How about we move the redlinks to a to-list on the talk page or the Basque Portal? Most of them would be justified entries on this list and I've always regarded them as a bit of a to-do list but I also see the point of not having redlinks on such a page. Akerbeltz (talk) 11:43, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

Good suggestion. Any interested editor is welcome to move them to either of those places, or to a sandbox on their own page. I'm personally a big fan of lists on wp -- unfortunately, when they are redlinks without a ref, the policy that they should be deleted makes some sense. As someone who has edited dozens of lists, I can tell you that many are farcical self-puffery ... and non-expert editors can't distinguish between those and the redlinks that ... if an editor created an article on the person, or added a ref reflecting notability and that they are in the intersection ... would lead to them properly being in the list. Best.

I might point out that at another list, an editor just last night wiped out an entire such list that was completely blue-linked. I am seeking to have that reversed. So ... I'm in favor of reasonable lists; just not entries without a shred of support as to their appropriateness.--Epeefleche (talk) 17:52, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

Yes, this list was a nightmare before I purged it and split it into two lists. Most of those redlinks you're removed are kosher, they're all well-known public figures, we just haven't gotten round to doing articles. I'm a tad busy right now but perhaps our IP co-editor might have some time to move them to his sandbox or create stubs? Akerbeltz (talk) 18:23, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

Requested move 21 July 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved as requested per the discussion below. Dekimasuよ! 02:07, 29 July 2018 (UTC)

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List of Basques → List of people from the Basque country – Per WP:NOR, WP:NPOV, and WP:COATRACK, we cannot commingle "people from the Basque country" and "people with some Basque ancestry"; the latter isn't an encyclopedic classification anyway. Talk pages of articles with ambiguous titles like this show a lot of dispute about inclusion, and it's caused by an impermissibly confused scope and a misleading title. This should move for WP:CONSISTENCY with almost all of the rest of our "people from X" articles and categories. The remaining "List of Labels" and "List of Label people" pages are being taken one RM at a time, since they vary between labels that are ethnic, national/regional, or both, on a case-by-case basis. The scope will need cleanup; it is presently explicitly mixing people from the Basque country and people who are not from there but identify as Basque, and even people with some Basque ancestry who speak Basque, which might include all sorts of Americans, British, Australians, etc., with a language interest and who are 1/8 Basque or whatever. It's not an encyclopedic criterion at all and is inevitably going to lead to OR.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  03:49, 21 July 2018 (UTC)

(E.g., I know a fair amount of Irish Gaelic, was born in the US, and am a big mix of Irish, English, Scottish, Dutch, Moravian, etc., etc., ancestry Should I be listed as an Irish person if I get my Irish language fluent? Hell no. Even if I go on about how Irish I am because of my great-great-great-great-grandmother from the Old Country.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  03:49, 21 July 2018 (UTC))

• Support per above and my reasoning at the move request at Talk:List of people from Sardinia. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 04:18, 21 July 2018 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Clean up progress

I have just finished going through all the names in the Political figures part of the page. They all now have a short description and those that don't meet the criteria have been shifted to the other (Ancestry) page. If anyone wants to do the same for another section it would take the page closer to getting rid of the Cleanup tag. Also I think we could split a "cinema" section off from the Arts one. It's split between painters and actors at the moment. Chaikney (talk) 14:23, 19 August 2024 (UTC)