Talk:Historical rankings of presidents of the United States

Reverted ‘Racism Ranking’

Please achieve consensus before re-adding material.

Section quoted a single book published in the early 2020s ranking presidents’ “racism”.

In addition to the…usual…nature of the section, it suffered from recentism.

It marked Lincoln as a “white supremacist”. It is…a highly unusual position, and one especially associated with a particular ideology that was most popular in 2020-2021. It is definitely something that will remain to be seen, whether there is still a serious historian ranking presidents by “racism” number in 30 years. Oxenfording (talk) 07:27, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

I have to concur, the “racist rankings” should be deleted, it’s quite obscene. Nate Rybner 02:07, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

adding my $0.02 here, this list is silly especially as it lists certain presidents in multiple categories. Nixon is both "anti-racist" and "white supremacist."— Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.26.248.228 (talk) 06:29, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

For the record; we achieve consensus before removing material. Saying "I deleted X, you must achieve consensus to question me" is a no. We don't do that here. -- Sleyece (talk) 01:41, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Late comment - for the record, we do actually do that here. See WP:BURDEN. That is policy. The burden for including that material (i.e. achieving consensus) has not been met. There isn't a comparable burden required to justify removing it, especially if the cited source is questionable. ~Anachronist (talk) 20:52, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Restored list. The arguments given above are unfortunate and to some extent specious. Calling the sources questionable just because there are two of them makes no sense - we are citing individual polls and studies, and these two are peer-reviewed ones of a crucial aspect. The comment above saying that white supremacy is merely "a particular ideology that was most popular in 2020-2021" is breathtakingly ignorant. Calling Nixon anti-racist for his policies and a white supremacist for his private views makes complete sense, and the source explains clearly the difference between a given president's personal views and their actions in office. The idea that you could call a description of Abraham Lincoln as a believer in the superiority of white people over black people "obscene" does show the passion that can blind us when editing - especially of beloved national figures. I'm not American, and perhaps I lack a bias that is implicit here on the talk page. But there are many sources that suggest that Lincoln was a man of his time and believed such things - it was the way society operated. Ask any prominent Civil War historian, and they will posit that Lincoln's views evolved throughout his life, but at no stage did he ever call for total equality.

"Clearly he began his politcal career believing Negroes inferior to whites and wishing gone from what he perceived an Anglo-Saxon America. On October 16, 1854, he declared in a speech, 'Let it not I am contending for the establishment of political and equality between the whites and blacks. I have already called for the contrary'... . After becoming President, he changed his mind. He moved, haltingly and agonizingly, toward abolition, issuing the Emancipation Proclamation and supporting the thirteenth amendment... Benjamin Butler, in his memoirs written more than twenty-five years later, declared that the President had remarked to him just before his death in April 1865, 'But what shall we do with the negroes after they are free? I can hardly believe that the south and north can live together unless we get rid of the negroes'"

Nelson, P. D. (1974). FROM INTOLERANCE TO MODERATION: THE EVOLUTION OF ABRAHAM LINCOLN’S RACIAL VIEWS. The Register of the Kentucky Historical Society, 72(1), 1–9. http://www.jstor.org/stable/23378278

I think the suggestion that Lincoln could not possibly have been a racist because he opposed to horrific brutality of slavery is more a case of "recentism" than any criticisms of the study as discussed above. These are all wholly different men from different periods, and whether they acted to mitigate institutional racism or not is not mutually inclusive with the world view they were raised in. Overall, the consensus here is poor and I think the addition was well-sourced and well-written - in short, a good addition to this article.

While the racism ranking is actually my favorite section of this article, a single editor can not overturn a consensus. Dimadick (talk) 13:52, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I understand. It's good you agree with me though! I put it back because I felt the arguments for removing it were based on a poor understanding the point of the academic study they were cited from. I'd appreciate getting consensus to add it back - it's annoying to have to go through the history every time. Dhantegge (talk) 04:47, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

I support restoring it. There are problems with it, but that's mostly due to difficulties in interpreting historical sources when racism was the norm. — kwami (talk) 00:25, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

I also support keeping the diversity and racism section. Have we determined that we should only summarize polls with secondary coverage? Most of the article is cited to polls themselves. Of them all, a textbook summary of a poll of experts seems weighty enough for inclusion. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 01:35, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

(updated x 2) It would make a stronger case if there were notable secondary sources talking about this ranking. I just found the book has 276 citations, but have had trouble tracking down any on the chart in particular (maybe the name on the chart isn't the name in the book?). In general, I prefer to exclude when on the fence because the encyclopedia is so large that we don't have enough volunteers to maintain the level-5 articles and consensus inclusion sections, let alone disputed ones. Superb Owl (talk) 13:56, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

I think it ought to be removed for some of the reasons given by others. I also think it is a problem as far as WEIGHT goes....as this is a single aspect of the person, when a President should be weighed by multiple things.Rja13ww33 (talk) 03:02, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Except that it reflects perhaps the most important social aspect of the US, which sparked one civil war and has people threatening a second. If maintenance is your concern, then we should delete all articles that aren't at least GA.

Of course presidents should be weighed by multiple things. That's what this whole article is about. This is fills in a gap of something critically important that presidents are typically not evaluated by. Encyclopedias are supposed to be universal; cutting out the concerns of minorities and reflecting only the concerns of whites does not make for universal coverage. — kwami (talk) 03:42, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

I was skeptical but am swayed to support keeping it given that it is evaluating something that does not seem to be evaluated in other surveys and seems additive Superb Owl (talk) 03:49, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

That sounds a lot like RIGHTGREATWRONGS and POV pushing to me. All the other surveys in the article tend to focus on overall job performance. Why break out this aspect of their Presidency? There are a bunch of issues we could break out. This sticks out like a sore thumb in the article.Rja13ww33 (talk) 03:55, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Then break out those other aspects of the presidency that aren't covered in our surveys. I'd welcome the additional information. Then this one won't stick out like a sore thumb. — kwami (talk) 05:01, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Personally I think we ought to have a RFC. The notion we should be breaking out these individual issues is nonsense. The article deals with overall historical rankings.Rja13ww33 (talk) 05:24, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

I don't understand why you want to remove pertinent information, or to restrict the POV of the article. Unless it's trivia, more info on a topic is generally better. — kwami (talk) 05:58, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

I've explained why. Either you aren't reading what I am posting or (with all respect) this is a classic case of ICANTHEARYOU.Rja13ww33 (talk) 16:50, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

The fact that someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they aren't listening. It could be (as unlikely as it seems) that they have a different opinion than you do. Explaining your opinion won't inevitably make it their opinion. — kwami (talk) 02:46, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

@Kwamikagami I support reinstating the racism ranking back into the article. It's a strong, peer-reviewed study which you can't find anywhere else. Dhantegge (talk) 03:17, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

I deleted the hypocritical 'primary sources' tag. Apart from the intro, just about everything in this article is based on primary sources. We could place that tag at the top of the article, but it's POV-pushing to add it to cherry-picked sections. — kwami (talk) 05:05, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Defense of President Harding Movement

Yet another presidential ranking year is here, and yet again Donald Trump ranks below Warren G. Harding. In fact EVERY time historians have been asked they rank Trump beneath Harding. When will it be okay to stop slander Warren and put Trump in the image of the three worst presidents? -- Sleyece (talk) 14:14, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

I agree that's more relevant than Harding's rankings in the 20th century - maybe start with a photo of Trump in the 2018-present subsection until there's consensus? Superb Owl (talk) 17:06, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

Yes, if we can get consensus on that I would agree it's appropriate at this time to have a picture and caption of Trump in that section -- Sleyece (talk) 21:42, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

I agree, Warren Harding was a very good and decent man and President. JohnAdams2024 (talk) 00:07, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

All he ever did was make sweet love to his mistress while his Cabinet raided the Treasury; then he had a stroke. #JusticeforHarding -- Sleyece (talk) 00:20, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

His cabinet did not do that. JohnAdams2024 (talk) 00:27, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Teapot Dome scandal Bkatcher (talk) 00:43, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

One cabinet member…hardly representative of his cabinet. The most ginned up scandal in American history and a total disgrace that it still affects the reputation of a good and decent man like Warren Harding. JohnAdams2024 (talk) 21:46, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Agreed - just one member is very different than the whole cabinet Superb Owl (talk) 22:05, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Yes, the Fall guy went to prison, and the rest of them kept all the money. -- Sleyece (talk) 05:13, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

I agree with removing Harding and adding Trump. Harding, much like Nixon, were embroiled in a scandal but were effective executives nonetheless. Buchanan and Johnson are where they are due to their disastrous handling of the country in the prelude to the Civil War and aftermath, respectively. Trump's handling of COVID and his loss in 2020 is just as egregious and damaging to the Union as Johnson and Buchanans ineffectualness. PaulRKil (talk) 14:41, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Part of Buchanan's poor reputation is not based on being ineffectual. He was a Doughface and promoted pro-Southern Democratic policies throughout his term. Other Northern Democrats disliked him, the Southerners considered him a useful ally but "without any firm moral commitment to their cause", and you can guess what other Northerners thought of him. The Doughfaces aimed to achieve "sectional compromise", but both failed to achieve this goal and uninentionally added fuel to the fire of sectional violence. Some historians view Buchanan himself as a traitor. Dimadick (talk) 13:18, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Appears to be consensus here, so I'll make the move. We list Harding as among the last in the last century, which is not what the list claims to be. The changes of fortune in rankings are of historical interest, but we should summarize opinion today. There is a potential problem of recentism, which was why we didn't do this earlier, but we are now a full term from Trump leaving office. — kwami (talk) 00:32, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

The 2024 ranking in the first chart is completely borked

Abraham Lincoln is down in the middle of the pack. Washington does not even show up. It seems to be a chart failure—the detailed rating for Lincoln show indicate he should be ranked first. The other charts also seem to have technical faults. I am going to check for vandalism, then either fix or blank. — Neonorange (talk to Phil) (he, they) 23:19, 24 July 2024 (UTC) —

Are you talking about 2010 Siena College ranking? I can't seem to reproduce the issue you are referencing Superb Owl (talk) 00:01, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

I am at the page now — will report soon. Still a problem that I see. Also dow grading many presidents in a very partisan way. By the way, I am using an iPad Pro, but never have seen chart disfunction like this in ten years. — Neonorange (talk to Phil) (he, they) 02:00, 25 July 2024 (UTC) —

@Superb Owl The APSC 2024 and the Siena column both are not functioning correctly. Check Obamma' rating of 44.

— Neonorange (talk to Phil) (he, they) 02:06, 25 July 2024 (UTC) —

It seems to be functioning correctly for me. I am using Firefox on a Windows 11 PC. I will check on an Mac & one or two mobile environments. Peaceray (talk) 02:07, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

It looks fine on Firefox on my MacBook Air but it cuts off after the WSJ 2000 column on Safari. But the APSA 2024 & Sienna 2022 columns look fine on both browsers. I am having dinner now but will check iPhone & Android phones later this evening. Peaceray (talk) 02:13, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

• • • • • — I am using the desktop version of Wikipedia. The worst part is what seems to be subtle vandalism—Many presidents are wildly outside reason. Obama ate bottom of Siena, Teddy Rosevelt near the bottom, etc. — Neonorange (talk to Phil) (he, they) 02:15, 25 July 2024 (UTC) —

          I am not having an issue either. Please do not blank the table Superb Owl (talk) 02:23, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

I just checked again—the problem seems to be in totaling the rows to get ranking at the least. The display I get might display correctly if it hand been done manually. perhaps removing function migt correct what I see—wildly inaccurate rankings caused by flaws in the chart mark-up. — Neonorange (talk to Phil) (he, they) 02:29, 25 July 2024 (UTC) —

Will not blank. May template. Too bad my Windows computer is down during an up grade. I will try Chrome to browse.

I just checked again—the problem seems to be in totaling the rows to get ranking at the least. The display I get might display correctly if it hand been done manually. perhaps removing function might correct what I see—wildly inaccurate rankings caused by flaws in the chart mark-up. — Neonorange (talk to Phil) (he, they) 03:43, 25 July 2024 (UTC) —

Chrome performs differently, in small ways. Still the same problems.

• The chart template is not setup to total rows. The total ranking numbers in what I see are manually entered and totally wrong. When I search the Internet, I see other outlet picking up the same, incorrect, ranking numbers that I see on Wikipedia Safari Desktop.
• This is the first source I can find for the complete ASPA 2024 survey is

https://www.wsav.com/now/the-2024-presidential-greatness-rankings-are-in/ WSAV.com in Savannah, Georgia.

• I first read the survey in the nyt about two days ago. Now, because their archive search function is so crappy, I can not find that article again.
• Please check the ranking numbers again. They do not reflect the source at all (I have only checked the ASPA 2024 completely, but indications that similar problems are in the data in the final ranking column on the left. Now, with more investigation, The issue with my Safari browser and iPad Pro are very minor. The issue is the manually entered bad data in the leftmost ranking column.

— thank you all for your help and work — Neonorange (talk to Phil) (he, they) 03:43, 25 July 2024 (UTC) —

better link for full APSA 2024 survey Spectrum News

— Neonorange (talk to Phil) (he, they) 06:06, 25 July 2024 (UTC) —

I have fixed the overall ranking numbers for the ASPA 2024 survey and added a second ref to that column. — Neonorange (talk to Phil) (he, they) 20:30, 25 July 2024 (UTC) —

Finally, the only problem with my Safari & iPad Pro is that the top row of the chart data does not appear. — Neonorange (talk to Phil) (he, they) 20:34, 25 July 2024 (UTC) —

Might want to double check. Kennedy is still listed as #35 overall in the first chart. I assume this error is due to conflation with his Sequential number and his ranking number.

By the way, how is the number in the first column being calculated? I just pulled the whole table into excel and averaged the scores and they're pretty out of whack. For example, Woodrow Wilson is currently in 15th place but his average score of 8.32 should put him in 7th place between Truman and Eisenhower.

I've never dug this deep into a talk page before, but happy to help any way I can Demigoob (talk) 22:15, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

@Demigoob; the Kennedy error is mine—I have restored him to #10. The source states Wilson at #15. The table does no calculation; the rankings are manually. I will look at Wilson again and reply here. Thanks for the offer of help—tables, I think, unless you have a lot of experience, are ver tedious, especially with very long rows and columns. — Neonorange (talk to Phil) (he, they) 23:37, 25 July 2024 (UTC) —

• • I guess I got in over my head. The 2024 polls shows correctly, but now every poll shows the same as the 2024 poll. — Neonorange (talk to Phil) (he, they) 01:07, 26 July 2024 (UTC) —
  • I reverted my edits to the table. Evidently there is a function to shift the column headed by each survey to the leftmost column. Find that and the aspa 2024 ranking problem can be properly fixed. I just do not have the time to learn the intricate features of this table. My edits, including the nyt cite and the correct ranking for 2024 are still there, but reverted. — Neonorange (talk to Phil) (he, they) 02:51, 26 July 2024 (UTC) —

Semi-protected edit request on 26 July 2024

The "number" column in the first chart ("scholar summary survey") was originally somewhat aligned with the average score of each president (with notable errors), however it has been edited within the last couple of hours to reflect the sequential order of each president. I think that's a better way of doing it, however a column that can sort the table by average score would be quite useful to people wishing to view the ranking of each President as an average of all the surveys that have ranked them. I would know, as that's how I found this page in the first place.

Please consider the following table, which adds a column with the average of all the survey scores combined, for users that wish to view the Presidents in order of average ranking score. This is my first table edit on Wikipedia, so although I have double-checked the numbers, you may want to triple-check them. Demigoob (talk) 04:01, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Wow, not only did my request post twice by accident, it seems to be completely malformed. First time is always the hardest, right?

anyway, here's a link with the original text of my request, including the table: https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vRrKSEEft1z3XIJUVUmgLkL6sYXAz8RIos6wu3cQOLT3PuH7YzgidMu5k7pctSmaS0N7g6mxao0q-pZ/pub Demigoob (talk) 03:58, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

I just now realized that what I was seeing when I first arrived on this page was the "No." column was based on the most recent survey, not an approximate average. Still, I think that an average score column would be a useful tool and provide much easier access to the information that the average user is here to learn. Demigoob (talk) 04:20, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

We have consensus to not have an 'average' column because it would be spurious. The average depends on which polls are included, and ideally would be weighted for the reliability of each poll. We can't do that, so adding an 'average' column is OR. We could have an average of Sienna polls or CSPAN polls perhaps, but not of all the polls that happen to make this list. — kwami (talk) 00:07, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Update to first table, edit request

Extended content
Political party	APSA 2024	Siena 2022	C-SPAN 2021	Siena 2018	APSA 2018	C-SPAN 2017	PHN 2016	APSA 2015	USPC 2011	Siena 2010	C-SPAN 2009	Times 2008	WSJ 2005	Siena 2002	WSJ 2000	C-SPAN 2000	Schl. 1996	R-McI 1996	Siena 1994	Siena 1990	Siena 1982	CT 1982	M-B 1982	Schl. 1962	Schl. 1948

Demigoob (talk) 03:53, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

 Question: what exactly are we supposed to do with this? M.Bitton (talk) 16:09, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

See earlier consensus on not doing this. — kwami (talk) 00:13, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Some of the charts are impossible to negotiate, on my machine at least, and I doubt that I'm alone. It's wider than the available window, and the sideways scrollbar is at the bottom of the chart. This means I can't find a president partway down the chart and see his score in columns the right-hand part of the chart, including the overall score. Koro Neil (talk) 06:26, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

we'll see what we can do, but I'm having trouble getting tables to work properly myself. — kwami (talk) 02:51, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

I've set the tables to be scrollable with fixed headers rather than static. See how that works on your devise. It can be disabled (link at top left) if you don't like it. — kwami (talk) 03:42, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

References

War mongers on the top of the list

the list of those presidents placed on the top are more of blood thirsty war initiators.

The question is who paid the polls to make such a bias towards wars? 2001:8F8:1661:FAFF:8C75:4250:CD94:8A61 (talk) 09:10, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

I question your assessment based on the overall 2022 Siena College rankings.

Regarding the top twelve:

• The US only went to war under Franklyn D. Roosevelt after it was attacked by Japan.
• There were no significant conflicts under the Washington, Jefferson, Madison, or Obama administrations.
• Aside from the end of the Korean War with the October 1953 armistice, a war that started under Truman, there was no major war under the Eisenhower administration, although there were covert actionss in the Congo, Guatemala, Iran, & Iraq.
• The Kennedy administration had no involvement in any major wars, although there were many conflicts. See Foreign policy of the John F. Kennedy administration.
• The Lincoln, Madison, Truman, & Johnson each had significant wars that started under them.

Of other presidents that had significant wars or conflicts, the overall 2022 Siena College rating has Wilson at 13, Polk at 15, McKinley at 22nd, Nixon at 28, & George W. Bush at 35th.

Since only a third of the top twelve ranked had initiated wars in which a foreign power did not start the wary, your assertion that those presidents placed on the top are more of blood thirsty war initiators seems faulty. Furthermore, your comment seems to violate the WP:OR, WP:NPOV, MOS:CONTENTIOUS, & WP:FORUM policies & guidelines. Peaceray (talk) 18:00, 12 October 2024 (UTC)