Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Geinokai

This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record.
The result of the debate was merge and redirect to Culture of Japan. ugen 64 04:30, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Geinokai

Dicdef. Japanese word for the "world of entertainment". Delete. --BM 16:57, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Keep and expand (and/or maybe merge with Culture of Japan) . Entertainment is important to the Japanese. Failing that, transwiki to wiktionary. Kappa 19:31, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Comment. Sure, entertainment is important to many folks, once their basic needs are met. However, that doesn't mean that the English Wikipedia (or the English wiktionary, for that matter) needs a separate article on all the words for entertainment that exist in a couple of thousand human languages Unless there is some evidence that the word is in the process of being adopted into English. --BM 20:16, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  - The english wiktionary certainly wants all the words for entertainment in all languages. What wikipedia doesn't have is an article for Japanese entertainment although Culture of Japan is close, maybe it could be merged into that. Kappa 21:18, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  - The remit of Wiktionary is all words in all languages. Being the English Wiktionary means that the articles are written in English, not that it only covers words in the English language. Thus article titles can be in any language, and indeed as per Wiktionary policy should be in the script of the language concerned. (So the articles at Wiktionary would be Wiktionary:芸能界 and Wiktionary:芸能人, and not Wiktionary:geinokai and Wiktionary:geinojin.) In contrast, article titles in Wikipedia are in English (as per the naming conventions). However, I'd like to see evidence of widespread use of these romanizations. If they aren't terms that English speakers would actually use, then they don't justify their being articles. Uncle G 00:36, 2005 Mar 7 (UTC)
    - Just googling "geinokai" gets plenty of hits from English speakers using the word in English. Incidentally wikionary will be pretty useless to me if I can't use romaji to find kanji. Kappa 01:59, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Delete, foreign dictionary definition. Megan1967 05:08, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Delete, wikipedia is not the place of dictionary definitions, and the process of having these type of articles moved to the wiktionary seems to be completely broken.--nixie 05:45, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Delete as dicdef. Radiant! 11:06, Mar 7, 2005 (UTC)
Keep and expand, perhaps in another category. Frankly, I'm new to this and thought I understood the rules regarding categorization, so I'd be willing to see this put someplace more appropriate. That said, regarding BM's comment that this is just a dicdef of 'entertainment,' the Geinokai is an untranslatable concept in English, and as a social phenomenon does not map 1-to-1 with the 'world of entertainment' or 'entertainment,' etc. It goes beyond that, and is a much narrower concept, so I thought it would be useful to include an article about it, since there's articles about Japanese idols, tarento and so on. If those things, which have obviously been recognized as independent concepts worthy of articles, are included, it would make sense to keep Geinokai. Of course, the article would have to be expanded to make this clear. Reldam 21:22, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Unfortunately while the policy says "dicdef 'with no potential for expansion", in practise people vote delete anyway, so the expansion can't happen. Maybe wikipedia isn't the best place to try and cover non-English-using cultures. Kappa 01:59, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  - Mabye this, and other Japanese (non-english) words would be better explained and less likely to be put up for vfd if they were included in some kind of article or list, like List of Japanese words related to entertainment- with the individual words are redirects to the list. I guess it would be like a glossary.--nixie 02:07, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- I completely agree with these comments. Japanese popular culture has taken on a life of its own among non-Japanese-speaking peoples (the US and France coming foremost to mind), and as evidenced by other articles specifically defining Japanese words in common use among such fans, there is clearly a niche. Maybe a category called "Japanese popular culture" could be created, under which everything from manga to tarento could be included. As I said before, however, I'm new to this, so I don't know how one would go about doing this. Reldam 18:25, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Unless someone can make a credible argument that Japanese entertainment is significantly different from everyone else's entertainment (and enough different that it deserves a breakout from Culture of Japan), I have to vote to Transwiki to Wiktionary. Reldam hints that there might be differences but didn't provide evidence. If the article is expanded before the discussion period ends, I'll reconsider my vote. Rossami (talk) 02:28, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Of course Japanese entertainment is different from everyone else's. Practically every country's entertainment is significantly different from every other's. Kappa 10:25, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I thought you couldn't expand articles that were being voted on. Basically, there are so many articles specific to Japanese culture (Japanese idol, manga, mangaka (what other culture has its own list of comicbook writers? - and in so many languages?), tarento, etc.) that Geinokai would be an umbrella for them all. If there's no room for Geinokai, then would we delete or transwiki all the other Japan-specific articles? An expanded Geinokai article would discuss the production company system, how scouting works, the Yakuza connection, and more. My argument is that there are so many Japanese pop culture-specific articles (and not just in the English Wikipedia) because Japanese pop culture is unique in the world today, and is beginning to have an influence (although in a different way) like US and British culture had in the 60s. Reldam 07:16, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- You certainly can improve articles during Vfd, although you may have to nag some people to reconsider their votes. An expanded Geinokai article would be a useful way to link the other J-culture items together, but they would still deserve their own articles. Another possibility would be to write about the geinokai in Culture of Japan, then break it out when its a decent size Kappa 10:25, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  - Okay, I'll do that, then. That seems like a more appropriate method. Reldam 19:42, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Unless significantly expanded, merge and redirect to Culture of Japan, with potential for spinning it back out in the future. -- Jmabel | Talk 01:12, Mar 10, 2005 (UTC)
- Sounds great. I'll look up how to do that, and do it. Incidentally, who's monitoring this and will make the final decision? Reldam 07:44, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  - Several people are monitoring in various degrees. I'm not sure exactly which admin or admins work out what the consensus is about each page, but they seem to be pretty good at it. -- Jmabel | Talk 17:51, Mar 10, 2005 (UTC)
Merge and redirect to Culture of Japan, which already has a significant section on Japanese pop culture. — Gwalla | Talk 03:16, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Merge and redirect - David Gerard 10:38, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Great! So should I just cut and paste, or is there a particular procedure for doing this, or what? I don't know what will happen to the actual entry, so I'll just paste what I've got so far into the Culture of Japan article, and let the powers that be do what needs to be done with the Geinokai page. Reldam 18:55, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.