Talk:Extended chord

Stringed instruments

Not once in this article do you mention the words "String Instrument" or "Guitar". As a guitar player I caught on fairly quickly that it was musical, but for someone who does not play guitar or have a musical background, this would be very confusing. Perhaps a short introduction ("An extended chord is a type of chord played on string instruments...", or something of the likes). I am no musical buff, and I don't feel capable of writing on this subject myself.

The problem with your suggestion is that an extended chord would not have to be played on a string instrument. Hyacinth 01:17, 8 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Sevenths as extended chords

Why have seventh chords been excluded from the list of extended chords? Surely they are the first extension of the triad - and I see that Professor Joan Wildman of the University of Wisconsin agrees: "Chord extensions and alterations result from the need to intensify a specific harmonic function. A triad can be extended to its 7th, 9th, 11th, and 13th" Source: http://hum.lss.wisc.edu/jazz/chordalterations.html (12 November 2005)

Following no response to the above, I've changed the article to include seventh chords as extensions. I've also removed the suggestion that it's accepted or common practice among popular and jazz musicians to call extended chords 'added note' chords, e.g., a 6th chord instead of a 13th. This is not acceptable or accepted practice, especially among jazz musicians, for whom knowledge of chord structure and correct terminology is usually an important consideration. (Dec 15 2005)

I must disagree with this point for historical reasons. Seventh chords as being added mainly to dominants were common practice in the baroque era, something that further extensions beyond the seventh are not, and would be considered more "colorful" chords than sevenths. The seventh chord has much broader and more significant uses in these early styles. I can see how someone might argue that seventh chords should be distinguished from triads, I think it is also important to make a distinction between the seventh chords and extensions beyond the octave. I will leave a note that some regard sevenths as extended harmony.

Another note to sixth chords, is that you shouldn't call them sixth chords as this is confusing when it comes to the figured bass usage of the term "sixth" meaning first inversion, or interval of a sixth above the bass, as in the neopolitin sixth. There is also a huge differance between the usage of both extended and added harmony between the jazz/20th century and pre-post-romantic that I feel it nessisary to split usage into more than one category. Ormaaj 11:22, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Removed

• "...whilst an instrument with limitations as depicted above cannot produce heavy sonorities, unpleasant tonal «aggregates»."

I removed the above from this sentence: "Adding the root is also very important but not essential, whilst an instrument with limitations as depicted above cannot produce heavy sonorities, unpleasant tonal «aggregates»." As I don't know what it means and it doesn't appear to relate the rest of the sentence. Hyacinth 13:09, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

• "Note that the use of compound interval equivalents to name the extensions beyond the seventh (e.g., 9th instead of 2nd) is not an indication that the chord contains compound, rather than simple, intervals (although they often do). It simply serves to indicate the proper position of the extended note in relation to the two-octave series of thirds from which all extended chords are derived, as follows:
• 1 - 3 - 5 - 7 - 9 ( = 2) - 11 ( = 4) - 13 ( = 6)"

I removed the above as it is a response to previous text and hard to understand despite that. Also, the assertion that a fourth chord an an eleventh chord are the same thing seems unlikely. Hyacinth 13:24, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Links

I've redirected the links for third and fifth to more appropriate pages as the text is clearly referring to the interval of a third, not the mediant scale degree, and to the fifth (note or chord member) not the dominant scale degree. Mark (30 March 06)

And I will have my links reverted, because there isn't a page that refers only to the meanings those two words have in music theory. The ones for the mediant and dominant are closest to the point. I am asking you not to modify them again, as long there aren't more than disambiguation pages linked to the third and fifth which show other references that might get our beloved reader a little unsure. If you don't have the time, I'll try to create those pages in a few days. Be patient and please do not change those links back to what's less precise. (Impy4ever 07:41, 30 March 2006 (UTC))

What would the appropriate page(s) be? Both major third and minor third are stubs, would you merge them into Third (interval) or Third (music)? Hyacinth 08:17, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

I admit that directing readers to disambiguation pages isn't ideal, as they may not be sure which option to choose. However, as a temporary measure, it's better than directing them to completely the wrong answer, as is the case with linking to mediant and dominant. In the mediant article, for example, there is nothing that explains what intervals of a third are, and nor should there be, given that they are completely different concepts. The disambiguation pages may be less precise, but at least the correct information is there, somewhere, and I think imprecision beats inaccuracy any day. Even the broad terms musical interval or chord (music) would be 'closer to the point'. I won't revert them, as per your request, as you are considering writing new articles to link to. (Mark 30 March 06)

Here's to you. I've checked most of the articles regarding intervals. I've given up building new pages because such an operation needs a lot of time, as there are articles for both minor and major instances of the same interval. Maybe I'll fashion up a little the existent disambiguation pages that the links in this article refer to. You see, I couldn't merge articles for major and minor third and forget about sixths or seconds, for instance. It's a whole structure I do not agree with very much, but I guess its drawbacks can be fixed quite well in very few simple steps. Moreover, I've renounced my initial plan because of the fact that I'm not very fast at editing pages and I thought blocking an article for a couple days wouldn't be too nice of me. Consequently, I've decided to revert the links I changed in the end of March. Impy4ever 15:37, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

i know i'm missing something but

why are sixth chords not considered extended? Joeyramoney 20:35, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

In the kind of harmony assumed in this article (tertian harmony), chords are extended by continuing the series of thirds established by the triad (1, 3, 5). This results in the note sequence: 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13. Simply adding a sixth to a triad results in an added sixth chord. The chord hasn't been derived by extending the sequence through the intermediate degrees, so isn't classed as an extended chord. - Mark, 11 June 2006

This is true. The more formal rule is that an extended chord is not extended unless the extended factor lies at least one octive from the bass note. Added chords also differ in function as they tend to exist more as standalone chords and resolutionary chords, rather than having a more definate function as a penultimate. The only extended chord that really stands out as a tonic is I9, as major, major, major 9 or minor, minor, major 9. Ormaaj 11:02, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

An added-sixth chord is really a four-voiced simplification of a 13th chord in which the fifth has been kept rather than the seventh. 82.176.209.52 (talk) 13:42, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

See this article, sixth chord, and tertian. Hyacinth (talk) 22:10, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Diatonic and chromatic

In the phrase "diatonically possible", the article uses the term "diatonically" without adequate explanation. The term diatonic, along with chromatic, is the cause of serious uncertainties at several Wikipedia articles, and in the broader literature. Some of us thought that both terms needed special coverage, so we started up a new article: Diatonic and chromatic. Why not have a look, and join the discussion? Be ready to have comfortable assumptions challenged! – Noetica^♬♩ Talk 06:17, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Highly Disputable Sourced Statement

Under the "19th Century" header:

"with 9th and 11th chords being used for "extra power" but invariably with one or more notes treated as appoggiaturas"

A source is provided, yet I cannot treat this statement as valid. Tchaikovsky, in his "Guide to the Practical Study of Harmony" (English version (c) 1900), states that the 9th resolves down a step to the tonic (p.40) but makes it clear in example 96 on that same page that the dissonance, the 9th, need not necessarily fall on a strong beat. A dissonance falling on a weak beat is by definition not an appoggiatura. Rimsky-Korsakov in his "Practical Manual of Harmony" (English version (c) 1930) makes the same point (p.41) by stating that the ninth resolves downwards to the tonic, but again leaving the positioning on weak or strong beats up to the composer. I thus suggest rephrasing the above comment to "with the 9th and 11th chords being used for "extra power" but invariably resolving these into consonances." 82.176.209.52 (talk) 13:39, 31 October 2010 (UTC)