Talk:Chinese noble titles in the imperial period
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Elevation and degradation, Nobility Systems, and Honorifics
[edit]The second paragraph: Elevation and degradation of rank might occur posthumously, and posthumous elevation was sometimes an aspiration; Guan Yu, was styled, during his lifetime, Marquis of Han Shou (漢壽亭侯) in the Han Dynasty then posthumously in the later Song Dynasty elevated to Duke Zhonghui (忠惠公) than in the Yuan Dynasty Prince of Xianling Yiyong Wu'an Yingji (顯靈義勇武安英濟王) than in the Ming Dynasty both beatified and royalized as Saintly Emperor Guan the Great God Who Subdues Demons of the Three Worlds and Whose Awe Spreads Far and Moves Heaven (三界伏魔大神威遠震天尊關聖帝君) and in popular culture deified as a God of Prosperity, Commerce, War, and Police.[2][3] Yes, that there was posthumous elevation (追封) and degradation. But the example given, on the other hand, are not the correct example.
First, the Marquis of Han Shou (漢壽亭侯), was not really a Marquis incomparable sense. The system that the Han Dynasty used, which was mostly inherited from Qin, was a 20 levels system, and within which, there were even more subdivisions in the "Marquis" level, depending on the size of their bestowed land. And here I want to point out that in the Qin and Han dynasty section, Qin Shi Huang did not eliminate noble titles. The 20 level system was a result of the Xiangyang Reform. And within this system, only the highest level Liehou(列侯/彻侯) was bestowed to a stripe of land (similar to feudal), and the rest of the levels were only given a "salary". And within Liehou, depending on the size of the land, there was then a difference in the title. Guan Yu's title, given by Cao Cao, (漢壽亭侯), was a "Ting Marquis", where "Ting" was an official administrative level (or size for this purpose). And Guan Yu was posthumously bestowed the title Marquis of Zhuangmou(壯繆侯) by the second Emperor of Shu Han (another side note: it should have been the Romance of the Three "Empires", not Kingdoms since all three claimed the title of Emperor).
Second, while the next two examples are correct, the last one, one can view that as posthumous elevation in the form of deifying and worship, and no longer in the strict sense of nobility title. Something along the line of recognizing a person as a saint officially. And retrospectively, any posthumous elevation or degradation not soon immediately after death usually can be viewed as something similar to saint recognition.
Third, while the Duke Zhonghui (忠惠公) reference was correct, the use of Gong (公) should be paid more attention to. The word Gong (公), while can be recognized as Duke, it can also be 1. an official title, such as San Gong (三公); 2. an honorific to elderly (male) (公公) or people who are with prestigious status in a certain way, much like excellency regardless of whether the person holds the noble title Duke.
--Endugh4ever (talk) 19:04, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
Who Added Yuan Shikai
[edit]Out of countless princes and dukes that have been so entitled, why were Yuan Shikai's given here? It's so out of place. Yuan's rule as the Emperor only lasted less than 3 months, and all these people are better known for their other titles. Whoever put them here should move them elsewhere.
On the other hand, there's hardly anyone (after Zhou Dynasty) worth-mentioning here. Few have entries in Wikipedia. Liuyao (talk) 06:00, 20 May 2010 (UTC) and thanks for reading
Remember to use section headings
[edit]needs to cover noble titles up to the Qing Dynasty -says cleanup.
- Above remark was by Cohesion, 10:12, 2004 Sep 1. The issue has been addressed since. Sebastian 21:56, 2005 Mar 18 (UTC)
- As per the section title. -114.91.67.40 (talk) 19:08, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
China before Qin
[edit]I quickly read through this wiki page and it seems like there *maybe* a somewhat misconception or unclear about what China is in pre-Qin era. In pre-Qin era, China is not a country, it is more like a "union" in which "the middle kingdom" (the leader country of the union) morally/theoretically is the highest leader of all "countries" that recognize them as the leader and has power over all those countries. However, because of technology, the middle kingdom can rarely really reach that far in power. So some other countries within the "union" may ignore their order or battle with other countries within the union to strengthen themselves. The middle kingdom may not have the power to stop them. As those countries get bigger, they'll start looking at replacing "the middle kingdom" to become the new "middle kingdom". But still, in pre-Qin era, their power never reaches all the countries within the "union".
It is a pretty loose system, evolving into the idea of 天下 (below the sky) later in Chinese thoughts. When China is broken into two or more countries, the countries attempt to unite 天下, which pretty much means "traditional Chinese core land + cultural Chinese area". Using today as an example, 天下 includes Taiwan (Republic of China) and Mainland China (People's Republic of China). Using the traditional view as in pre-Qin or post-Qin, leaders of both countries are both recognized as the king (or leader, whatever today's title is named) of their country, though they're both also viewed as part of 天下.
In the dynasty of Zhou, not only the king of "the middle kingdom" is named 王 (king). Other big countries may also be named the same way. Though the 王 of "the middle kingdom" is often referred to as 天子 (son of the heaven) instead of 王.
They simplify what I'm talking about, there is always more than one "king" in China in pre-Qin period because there are many countries within China (the union-like power led by the "middle kingdom" at the time). It is said that in the dynasty of Xia, there're 3000 countries in China, while it goes down to 800 countries at the beginning of Zhou. And only 8 left (including the Middle Kingdom, which really has no power already compare to the other 7 countries) right before Qin unite China. After Qin united China, there is only one "Emperor" in China and "天下 = the kingdom" in normal times unless 天下 is broken into pieces.
It's not exactly the same as European —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ljgshkg (talk • contribs) 04:51, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
- Your point is true during the late Zhou (the Spring and Autumn Period), but not particularly well taken before that. Also, I'm not sure where it was said that there were ever 3000 countries in China, but it's surely hyperbole unless you're counting every village as a kingdom and certainly the Chinese wouldn't have considered their rulers to be wangs, particularly in the time before the Qin when there was only one wang in the world.
- As for the rest, I think most of us understand that the Chinese state gradually expanded to the borders of the Qing Empire from a central core, with some oddities caused by civil wars, rebellions, and external conquest. Nevertheless, the previous (sometimes petty, sometimes grand) states which existed inside the current Chinese borders weren't necessarily 'Chinese' themselves, even though their descendants now are. -114.91.67.40 (talk) 19:06, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
Styles for Foreign Monarchs
[edit]I just started replacing the pinyin of Chinese translations of titles such as "queen" with hanzi, when I realized: What's the point? I don't think the question of how to translate them is of encyclopedic interest – this belongs in a dictionary (a bilingual one – not Wiktionary). Question: Should the whole section be deleted or only the second half? — Sebastian (留言) 21:05, 2005 Apr 10 (UTC) ICANT FIND NE THIMG 4 MIS KITE'S ESSAY
- You would be wrong. The question should be addressed and answered encyclopedically, with an intention to the meaning and historical differences not present in a dictionary. -114.91.67.40 (talk) 19:07, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
Comments
[edit]1. The old nobility in China bears no comparison whatsoever to European nobility. Titled individuals were usually feudal lords in control of their own fiefdoms. Under later dynasties, as China became more centralized, the feudal nobility was suppressed. To my knowledge, noble titles were only given under the Qing Dynasty to the head of the House of Confucius (the Duke of Qu Fu), the head of the Imperial House of Ming (the Marquess of Extended Grace), and two nineteenth-century statesmen, Li-X-X and Guo-X-X (I cannot remember their given names). Titled individuals under the Qing Dynasty were usually descendants of the Manchu Emperors. (There were many of them - considering that each emperor had many concubines and that each of his sons had, in turn, a lot of concubines too. To be noted here, perhaps, is that a concubine was NOT a mistress: the children of concubines were on par with the children of the Empress and other minor wives with regards to succession.)
2. When one talks of the "nobility" in China, one usually refers to the mandarinate, I think. Members of mandarin families were not titled and were not strictly themselves "mandarins" until they passed state examinations. However, many of them trace their lineage back to the Song Dynasty (900s-the 1200s), if not earlier. They were the veritable "ancient riches" of China.
3. Noble titles extant under the Qing (mostly for descendants of the Imperial House) were NOT abolished in 1912 with the fall of the Chinese monarchy. The Xuan-tung Emperor (Pu-Yi) and the revolutionaries signed a concordat, mediated by Yuan Shi-kai, the last Prime Minister of the monarchy and the first President of the Republic (treacherous man!). It was called, in English, the Treaty of Favourable Treatment in which the newly founded Republic of China agreed to recognize, inter alia, all titles of the nobility. Another article recognized the position of the last Emperor as Emperor (his abdication ended the rule of the Dynasty over China, but not the Dynasty itself!). The Republicans further added that he would be treated with all dignity due to a foreign monarch. The Treaty was only rescinded in 1924 (I think), following which his late Imperial Majesty defected to the Japanese and was reinstated as, firstly, Head of State of occupied Manchuria and, later on, Emperor of Manchukuo. This decision was highly criticized by most members of the Imperial Family, including the Emperor's father and former Regent, Prince Chun.
I have some doubts about the accuracy of the section regarding the nobility listed in 2.3 Nobility in Evolution, both in terms of the titles listed and the orders, they are listed in. For example, to my knowledge both "Beizi" and "Shizi" are subranks of "Beile", and "Beizi" should precede "Shizi". I can't confirm right away, however. I also remember there to be a lot more ranks between "Qinwang" and "Beile". It'd help if someone can provide the source for the information. Uly 21:39, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
- Point 1 is not well taken. First, there are standard equivalencies used between the Chinese and Western systems. Second, before Qin and at certain times afterward, the nobility functioned more or less similarly (piecemeal local control and administration.)
- Similarly, point 2 is only accurate when talking about certain (later) periods of Chinese history.
- If people can find sources for his last two points, please do as it would be good for improving the article. -114.91.67.40 (talk) 19:15, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
Wang as a title of nobility/government
[edit]Wang, or "king" (when directly translated), carries the same weight as a British Governor-General. In many cases, a "king" within a dynasty is appointed by the emperor and he becomes responsible for the security and administration of the region. The office itself can be hereditary so in a sense, it is like and unlike the British Governor-General system. (Psychoneko 04:56, 19 July 2007 (UTC))
- No, it does not carry the same weight as governor-general. The Chinese equivalent of governor-general is Viceroy (China), sometimes translated as governor-general. It is also not hereditary. Wang carries the same weight as the Duke of York or Prince of Wales.Rajmaan (talk) 08:12, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
Zhou dynasty
[edit]JI 姬 AND JIANG 姜: THE ROLE OF EXOGAMIC CLANS IN THE ORGANIZATION OF THE ZHOU POLITY Edwin G. Pulleyblank Early China, Vol. 25, (2000), pp. 1-27 Published by: Society for the Study of Early China Article Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/23354272
Kingship and Inheritance in the State of Wu: Fraternal Succession in Spring and Autumn Period China (771-475 BC) Olivia Milburn T'oung Pao, Second Series, Vol. 90, Fasc. 4/5 (2004), pp. 195-214 Published by: BRILL Article Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/4528969
SAGES, COOKS, AND FLAVOURS IN WARRING STATES AND HAN CHINA Roel Sterckx Monumenta Serica Vol. 54, (2006), pp. 1-46 Published by: Monumenta Serica Institute Article Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/40727531
Bey or Baig might be derived from Chinese bo 伯
http://books.google.com/books?id=1bArr1-E5mQC&pg=PA68#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=6fqJL619dlgC&pg=PA68#v=onepage&q&f=false
new Dynasties enfeoffing members of the old dynasty they overthrew
[edit]Xia dynasty descendants enfeoffed by Shang and Zhou
Qi (Henan) Zeng (state) Yue (state)
http://www.jstor.org/stable/25188470?seq=5
These lords were generally relatives of the Chou kings, although in several instances they were descendants of previous rulers of the territory concerned. We have already mentioned that the State of Sung was ruled by descendants of the Shang Kings.
Page 10
Title Ancient Chinese bronzes of the Shang and Chou dynasties: an illustrated catalog of the van Heusden collection, with a historical introduction Ancient Chinese Bronzes of the Shang and Chou Dynasties: An Illustrated Catalogue of the Van Heusden Collection, with a Historical Introduction by Willem Van Heusden, Willem van Heusden Author Willem van Heusden Publisher Privately published, 1952
Emperor_Xian_of_Han#Abdication_and_death Duke of Shanyang
Liu_Shan#Life_after_the_fall_of_Shu Duke of Anle
Sun_Hao#Fall_of_Eastern_Wu Marquis of Guiming
Emperor_Gong_of_Jin#After_abdication Prince of Lingling
Sima Guang was a Jin descendant
Emperor_Shun_of_Liu_Song#Death Prince of Ruyin
Emperor_Jing_of_Western_Liang#Reign Duke of Ju
Gao_Heng#Death Duke of Wen
Chen_Shubao#During_Sui_Dynasty Duke Yang of Changcheng
Emperor_Ai_of_Tang#Death Prince of Jiyin
Qian Chu various titles
Emperor_Tianzuo_of_Liao#Titles Prince of Haibin
Talk:Kingdom_of_Dali#Mongol_rule w:zh:大理君主列表#.E5.A4.A7.E7.90.86.E4.B8.96.E8.A5.B2.E7.B8.BD.E7.AE.A1 King Duan Xingzhi of Dali, appointed as Maharaja by the Mongols.
Emperor_Gong_of_Song#Gong.27s_ennoblement_by_the_Yuan_Dynasty Duke of Ying (瀛国公/瀛國公)
Zhao Yurui 趙與芮 - Duke of Pingyuan Canton (平原郡公).
Cadet members of the Song Imperial family like Zhao Mengfu, his son Zhao Yong were left alive by the Mongols. Members of the Song Imperial family like Zhao Yiguang were still around during the Ming.
Page 10
* It has always been considered a most heinous crime by the Chinese to exterminate the last descendants of a family line and thereby cut off the worship of their ancestors. These ancestors, especially if they belonged to a powerful line of rulers, were sure to take revenge upon the perpetrators of the crime. Consequently, a new Dynasty has generally seen to it that the last descendants of the preceding ruling house were placed in a position where they were harmless but able to keep up the traditional homage to their ancestors. The last Imperial Dynasty, even though they were Manchus, was sufficiently Siniciscd to keep up the custom. In 1924 a descendant of the preceding Ming Dynasty, adorned with the rank of a Marquis (the Marquis of Extended Grace) was ...
Title Ancient Chinese bronzes of the Shang and Chou dynasties: an illustrated catalog of the van Heusden collection, with a historical introduction Ancient Chinese Bronzes of the Shang and Chou Dynasties: An Illustrated Catalogue of the Van Heusden Collection, with a Historical Introduction by Willem Van Heusden, Willem van Heusden Author Willem van Heusden Publisher Privately published, 1952 Length 193 pages
Expenditures and Size of the House of Zhu during the Ming dynasty
[edit]The ming dynasty operated a feudal system of autonomous principalities running parallel to the provincial administration, like many other imperial era dynasties.
http://books.google.com/books?id=i6pIMVGPkuUC&pg=PR22#v=onepage&q&f=false
The size of the Zhu family reached over 80,000, and they took up a vast amount of resources, and even then some of them were driven into poverty.
http://books.google.com/books?id=sEvQbGpqQG0C&pg=PA273#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=sEvQbGpqQG0C&pg=PA274#v=onepage&q&f=false
Another estimate is 100,000, and each Princely member of the family had thousands of their own retainers. After eight generations they lose their princely title.
http://books.google.com/books?id=Ka6jNJcX_ygC&pg=PA18#v=onepage&q&f=false
Imperial princes who were not heirs to the throne were gone away from the capital
http://books.google.com/books?id=bANasl7nayUC&pg=PA122#v=onepage&q&f=false
Some princely fiefs had thousands of guards.
http://books.google.com/books?id=i6pIMVGPkuUC&pg=PA13#v=onepage&q&f=false
Regulations concerning the graves of imperial princes during the Ming.
http://books.google.com/books?id=C9paA51D7kYC&pg=PA451#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=C9paA51D7kYC&pg=PA452#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=C9paA51D7kYC&pg=PA453#v=onepage&q&f=false
A tripod system of administration was used in the provinces. In Yunnan, the Mu family had more power than the prince. Prince Min was assigned to Yunnan.
http://www.gutenberg-e.org/yang/chapter4.html
The Su principality (Zhu Ying, Prince Zhuang of Su)
http://books.google.com/books?id=i6pIMVGPkuUC&pg=PA155#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=i6pIMVGPkuUC&pg=PA156#v=onepage&q&f=false
Zhu Gang, Prince Gong of Jin
http://books.google.com/books?id=J1tZBMy52oYC&pg=PA132#v=onepage&q&f=false
Prince Zhu Youdun
http://books.google.com/books?id=YyU_dv57xYQC&pg=PR23#v=onepage&q&f=false
Marquis of extended grace
[edit]Create a new article on this topic.
The Qing dynasty The Qing court emphasized that they were not conquerors but had entered China to "help" overthrow the rebel Li Zhi Cheng. They buried Emperor Chong Zhen and in 1725, appointed a member of the Ming royal family as the "Marquis of Extended Grace", 延恩侯, whose duty was to perform rituals for his imperial ancestors, the former Ming Emperors. Despite acts of goodwill, the Qing court was brutal in suppressing any challenge to their rule.
http://www.chinatownology.com/Ming_dynasty_remembered.html
http://baike.baidu.com/view/2998428.htm
Page 83
On the card was written: "Chu Yu/hsun, a descendant of the Imperial Ming House, Marquis of Extended Grace, bearing the additional personal name of Ping/nan and residing in Yang/Kuan Road, Little Street, North of the Tung/Chih Gate".
Title The Great within Author Maurice Collis Publisher Faber and Faber, 1956 Original from the University of Virginia Digitized Feb 21, 2011 Length 349 pages
Page 46
There, Reginald Johnston introduced Puyi to the Bengali poet Rabindranath Tagore and the last descendant of the Qing imperial family, the Marquis of Extended Grace, who graciously acknowledged Ming supremacy whilst continuing to carry ...
Title The Forbidden City A place in history Author Frances Wood Edition illustrated Publisher British Museum Press, 2005 Original from Indiana University Digitized Nov 4, 2008 ISBN 0714127892, 9780714127897 Length 78 pages
Page 10
* It has always been considered a most heinous crime by the Chinese to exterminate the last descendants of a family line and thereby cut off the worship of their ancestors. These ancestors, especially if they belonged to a powerful line of rulers, were sure to take revenge upon the perpetrators of the crime. Consequently, a new Dynasty has generally seen to it that the last descendants of the preceding ruling house were placed in a position where they were harmless but able to keep up the traditional homage to their ancestors. The last Imperial Dynasty, even though they were Manchus, was sufficiently Siniciscd to keep up the custom. In 1924 a descendant of the preceding Ming Dynasty, adorned with the rank of a Marquis (the Marquis of Extended Grace) was ...
Title Ancient Chinese bronzes of the Shang and Chou dynasties: an illustrated catalog of the van Heusden collection, with a historical introduction Ancient Chinese Bronzes of the Shang and Chou Dynasties: An Illustrated Catalogue of the Van Heusden Collection, with a Historical Introduction by Willem Van Heusden, Willem van Heusden Author Willem van Heusden Publisher Privately published, 1952 Length 193 pages
Page 119
His teachings on the art of government, contained in the Ming Bao Shun B£ ^ Jig were recognized as a model and order was ... 81, who was given a stipend and the hereditary title of Marquis Qiu ) of the Extended Grace (Yan'en J<£,® ).
Title Central Asiatic Journal, Volume 46 Publisher O. Harrassowitz, 2002 Original from Indiana University Digitized Jun 18, 2010
http://books.google.com/books?id=uEoTAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA761#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=TmnfUKQTym8C&pg=PA624#v=onepage&q&f=false
Page 119
Page 356
Confucius family
[edit]http://books.google.com/books?id=uEoTAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA761#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=TmnfUKQTym8C&pg=PA624#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=QkBBAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA65#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=1DqjMGlyY5QC&pg=PA381#v=onepage&q&f=false
Koxinga's family
[edit]Duke
http://books.google.com/books?id=sEYPAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA235#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=QkBBAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA65#v=onepage&q&f=false
THE TRANSFORMATION OF MEDIEVAL CHINESE ELITES (850-1000 C.E.)
[edit]This dissertation is mostly about the Chinese aristocracy during the Tang and Song dynasties. Some aristocrats traced their roots back to the Han dynasty. They affixed the place of origin to their surnames to indicate what clan they belonged to.
20:16, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
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Rating from C to Start
[edit]The article does not meet the "C" criterion, "Useful to a casual reader," only "Start": "Provides some meaningful content, but most readers will need more."
Major points:
- The most important missing items are the last Millenium, from the Song to the Qing, which saw major changes in the social structure and the Imperial examination system undermined the hereditary nobility. The lead section does not summarize.
- Most of the article is random information.
- The number of notes (over 200) misleads the reader into thinking that the article is well referenced. But many of the sections are not referenced at all; many of the notes do not give titles; many references are to inappropriate works while major works in the field are not used at all.
- A note says that some text is incorporated from Encyclopedia Britannica 1911, but there is no note to it.
- Proofreading! Starting with the first sentence of the lead, which does not make sense, there are too many errors.
ch (talk) 23:47, 7 July 2019 (UTC)
- 👆🏽This is not an encyclopaedia article. It's an indiscriminate heap of poorly sourced unstructured information. If anyone seeing this has relevant sources please help Folly Mox (talk) 12:56, 26 April 2023 (UTC)