Talk:Socialist Party (Ireland)

Discussion

Merged Socialist Party (Ireland) with this page. Also added some new info from the 2004 elections.

Move to Socialist Party (Ireland)?

• Support - SoM 03:17, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

This article has been renamed as the result of a move request. violet/riga (t) 23:14, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

NPOV

I stumbled on this page and I felt there was a bias for the party. It is written in many places like a promotion of the party, even with the occasionally added "they believe" or something to give it the appearance of neutrality. I'm not from Ireland or anything and no nothing about the subject, but I think maybe some Irish readers might want to try to add some neutrality. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gtbob12 (talk • contribs) 19:42, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

It's been three months since this NPOV post was added. Nobody has responded to it and no specific issues have been mentioned as needing change to fit with a NPOV. I'm going to remove the NPOV tag in a week or two if nobody points out changes that they feel are necessary to fit the NPOV guidelines. There doesn't appear to be any particular dispute at the moment, just a single general complaint about tone. That's best fixed simply by adding more material to the article.--Scrawledincrayon (talk) 20:33, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

A lot of the article is ok but a good few parts need to be re-written due to the aformentioned NPOV. A lot of SP members have edited this article (along with others particularly the Labour Party article) to fit their own view which needs to be changed.

Exiledone (talk) 23:27, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

Merger proposal: Militant Labour (Ireland) and Militant Tendency (Ireland) into Socialist Party (Ireland)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The result was merge into Socialist Party (Ireland). No opposition after 5 weeks Mpjd500 (talk) 10:57, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

---

I propose that the articles Militant Labour (Ireland) and Militant Tendency (Ireland) be merged into Socialist Party (Ireland). Both articles are stubs that I think can be covered under a History heading within the Socialist Party article without causing any problems of undue weighting. Mpjd500 (talk) 11:13, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Claire Daly

In the interest of balance shouldn't it include her reasons for leaving the party and not just the reasons the party gave, which she contests.

In the interest of balance shouldn't this entire thing be rewritten.

Ideology

The Socialist Party is ideologically a Trotskyist party, as is apparent in their discussions, (Many reviews of Trotsky's works etc, [1]) as well as their membership of the Committee For a Workers' International, comments by their members, (Supporting Bolsheviks [2] + Critical of USSR [3] from a Trotskyist standpoint).

It is also Leninist given their method of Party organisation(Allows factions, uses democratic centralism etc).

On top of this, it is also radical as it calls for Socialist revolution and a restructuring of society.

Given that these have been removed from the wikipedia article for lack of reference, we will also have to remain consistent and remove the claims that they are Democratic Socialists or Marxists as well, as these are also unreferenced claims.

Cyridius (talk) 05:56, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Number of elected representatives

It appears Paul Murphy is being double-counted as an elected TD for the Socialist Party and as a member of the AAA. I don't care especially which party gets the number, but the total for Dáil membership shouldn't exceed 166. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 11:13, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

The 2 Socialist Party TDs are Joe Higgins and Ruth Coppinger. Snappy (talk) 11:58, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

Very strange

Why is this article in the ideology section claiming "democratic socialism" is the primarily political identity of this party? This simply isn't true. It is an explicitly Trotskyist party, it is the Militant tendency in Ireland. It isn't like this is a broad non-descript social democratic party with a few Trotskyists entryists.... it is the Trotskyist entryists after they got kicked out of Labour. Claíomh Solais (talk) 00:00, 18 January 2017 (UTC)

Agreed. Changed to "Socialism". Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 09:18, 18 January 2017 (UTC)

Could we get some references for using "Trotskyist"? Is it a self-description off their website? I can't find it. -- HighKing⁺⁺ 19:47, 20 July 2017 (UTC)

Hi HighKing. I'll have a look around for some reliable external sources to see if I can find any that support this claim. However, it should be noted that self claims by political parties in regard to their ideologies should not normally be regarded as good enough evidence to go by on their own, unless at least one reliable, external source backs up their claims. I think that Trotskyism is included in the list because of the party's formation from Militant Labour, which was a Trotskyist organisation. However that is basically a WP:SYNTHESIS argument, and therefore should not stand. If there are no reliable sources backing up an ideology claim, please feel free to remove it. Thank you for bringing up this matter. Helper201 (talk) 20:25, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

I've added a supporting ideology for the claim of the party being Trotskyist. Helper201 (talk) 20:36, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

Helper201 Is there a better reference available than a single Opinion piece article in the Irish Times? Hardly enough on its own to merit this tag surely? -- HighKing⁺⁺ 20:47, 23 July 2017 (UTC)

That is all I've been able to find in regards to supporting the claim of the party being Trotskyist. What do you think constitutes this as an opinion piece (genuine question, not trying to be sarcastic)? Is it because the authors name is in the title? If that does genuinely mean its an opinion piece it doesn't have any validity and I'll remove it. Helper201 (talk) 07:10, 24 July 2017 (UTC)

Well, because the item is under the "Opinion" section of the website from the URL you added to the article. And its in the URL too.

I think I've found a better source. I don't have time right now but I shall add it next time I'm on Wikipedia. Helper201 (talk) 08:57, 24 July 2017 (UTC)

OK, perhaps I'll keep checking back here, no immediate hurry although I'm having a related discussion on my Talk page with User:Laurel Lodged about adding a Trotskyist" label to Ruth Coppinger's article lede... -- HighKing⁺⁺ 17:32, 24 July 2017 (UTC)

Have a look at [4] - fully supported by the director of CWI. Several books on Trotsky. Laurel Lodged (talk) 07:58, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

What am I looking at? Just seems to be a webpage on socialist theory with links to lots of articles that includes stuff on Trotsky on a "Socialist World" website. How does that connect back to the Socialist party in Ireland? -- HighKing⁺⁺ 17:26, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

Political ideology not cited and no evidence given of why left-wing should have been removed

OK, so no idea why I'm the one that is expected to start this topic here on talk, as I'm not the one that is proposing making a change to what has long been stated on the main page. My position is that for the sake of neutrality the political position should be removed until evidence is given for whichever position should be stated and good reason why the other (left-wing or far-left) should be removed. Otherwise I would propose that it should go back to the way it long stood, as left-wing to far-left. Helper201 (talk) 19:07, 24 November 2017 (UTC)

Simple. Read any of the links in the article for Trotskist or Socialist International. Come back to us if this blindingly-obvious isn't enough for you. Laurel Lodged (talk) 10:42, 25 November 2017 (UTC)

Well, first of all the article that claims the party to be Trotskist appears to be an opinion piece by the fact the authors name is in the title. Secondly, that very same article actually claims the party to be left-wing. Yes Trotskism is an ideology that most would claim to be on the far-left, does that mean the party is, no. That, along with your implication that being a member of Socialist International somehow defines them as only being far-left is a WP:SYNTHESIS argument. If you were going to use that argument as a basis for the party's position you could also point to the ideology of democratic socialism, which is not widely regarded as a far-left ideology, or the fact that they are also a member of European United Left–Nordic Green Left, a left-wing group, but as I said already, you shouldn't as that is a synthesis argument. Your sarcasm and sense of self-righteousness is also highly unhelpful. Helper201 (talk) 17:29, 25 November 2017 (UTC)

Laurel Lodged, this was already discussed above, and indeed 18 months ago. A list of books taken from a party's website can't be used as a "citation" that the party is Trotskyist. A sister organisation's ideology can't be used to infer that this organisation is Trotskyist. That's classic WP:SYNTHESIS. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 23:06, 8 December 2018 (UTC)

An article on the party website about James Connolly compares him approvingly with Trotsky . But I think that it is the Trotskyist method that makes a party Troskyist. This article mentions the theory of permanent revolution, a classic Trotskyist idea. Another Trotskyist theme is found under "about us", on their website. They emphasise that only the working class can resolve society's problems. Their work on women's rights is better understood from reading Trotsky's "Transitional programme" which also explains statements such as "Recent events in Egypt, in Turkey, in Greece and in Brazil illustrate that mass movements and even revolution are on the agenda in the 21st century". They are taking the current understanding of the working class and leading them on to revolutionary conclusions. Vahvistus (talk) 19:36, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

And? When you have a reliable secondary source that describes the party as Trotskyist, then we can talk. Your interpretation of articles on their website is WP:OR and WP:SYNTHESIS and doesn't qualify for inclusion. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 20:36, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

How about this. A brief biography of Peter Hadden in the Encyclopaedia of Trotskyism On-line (ETOL). Peter was one of the founders of the Militant in Ireland. "committed to building the forces of Trotskyism and the unity of the working class, along with the other initial forces of the Irish Militant. After a few years working for the NIPSA union, he worked full time as a leading member of the National Executive of the Irish Militant/Socialist Party for the rest of his life, serving as a guiding influence on the party, both north and south." His writings are collected in the ETOL Vahvistus (talk) 22:16, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

Ask yourself "Is this a reliable secondary source that describes the Socialist Party as Trotskyist?" The answer in this case is obviously "No." Please do also read the linked WP:OR and WP:SYNTHESIS pages. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 22:27, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

Sorry I don't understand why ETOL, which is a part of the Marxist Internet Archive, is not a reliable secondary source. Vahvistus (talk) 00:09, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

This is just comical. Why is Bastun so determined to hide the party's Trotskist core? Should personal allegiances be declared here? Laurel Lodged (talk) 21:03, 27 December 2018 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't understand why an ETOL biography of one person that fails to mention that the Socialist Party is Trotskyist is being advanced as a RS that the Socialist Party is Trotskyist... Laurel Lodged, I'm sorry, I refer you both again to my comment of 10th December, above. Ask yourself "Is this a reliable secondary source that describes the Socialist Party as Trotskyist?" The answer in this case is obviously "No." Please do also read the linked WP:OR and WP:SYNTHESIS pages. It really is that simple. For the record, I am not, and have never been a member of the Socialist Party, AAA, the Socialist Workers Party, PBP, AAA-PBP, Solidarity, Solidarity-PBP, or Militant Labour. But it's nice to be accused of membership of this party on one talk page and a right-wing FG supporter on others, I guess I'm doing something right... ;-) Regards, Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 11:16, 28 December 2018 (UTC)

Is it true they wouldn't let you join because they are for the workers not the pedants?Vahvistus (talk) 20:51, 30 December 2018 (UTC)

References

Deletion of seat distribution in NI, Westminster, EP

Can Spleodrach and Bastun explain why they are deleting this? The SP party is an an-all Ireland party and so the infobox should list the seat distribution, which is the standard practice for all parties. 51.37.58.139 (talk) 17:08, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

It is standard practice to only list the ones where they do have seats. Spleodrach (talk)

What Spleodrach said. This was explained to you in edit summaries, too. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 09:26, 10 July 2023 (UTC)